So this thread:

http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9567

...Got me thinking about deposits.

How do other makers handle deposits on custom commissions? Have you found that they impact potential sales one way or the other? What do collectors think is an appropriate figure?

J, I am with you on this as I have had over $1600 worth of knives that were ordered with no follow through this summer. When I tried to contact them two of the people would not answer my emails or phone calls. The other one bought a quantity of knives $1100 worth and ordered more which I built and when finished I called him and he would not exact them. Live and learn I guess. Some say we should not do this but I sometimes wonder if thy are living in the world that we knife makers that are striving for name recognition are living in. I would like to hear more on this subject as I wonder how many have experienced trouble with the lack of sales being one of the biggest problems for the new knife maker. Gib

I'm a manager of a furniture store. Every special order has to have a deposit. 1/3 to 1/2 is about right. You need the comittment from the client up front. As I start selling knives, I will definately require a deposit. Everyone is willing to play with your money.

Knifemaking is hard enough without the hassle of order falling through!

This may not be to your liking, but the norm in the custom knife world seems to be no deposit, unless:

A)- money has to be laid out up front for rare or unique materials, or
B)-the knife under consideration is so unusual that the maker could probably not find another buyer.

Having said that, I have no problem with anyone asking for a deposit if they can get it. I do know that it turns off a lot of potential buyers, however.

This is another fine reason, in my case, for refusing commissions. I can make what I want to, and offer it for sale. Deposits are a non-issue with me.

I used to make knives exclusively to the customers order. I required 50% up front and the other 50% within 30 days of finishing the knife. After 30 days, I would resell the knife. I had this in writing with EVERY customer that ordered a knife. I only had two not return for the knife after being notified. Both of them asked me to try to resell the knife as they could no longer afford to buy it. Both knives sold for the outstanding balance. I had one knife ordered forged out of a drill bit. A large 1" drill bit and they wanted the drill to be the handle and the "tang" hammered out into a blade. It was the wierdest request ever, I knew I could not resell it and explained that to the customer, he paid in full before I started.

I rarely take custom orders anymore. Not because the deposit scares them away, but because the many, many little "Changes" that always seem to come up that take so much more time.

Now, I make what I want and if it sells, OK. If it does not sell, OK.

I will still require 50% up front on any order that I get requiring me to make something specific. I don't live off knifemaking so I can afford to loose a sale by makeing this a requirement.

From a collector's standpoint, I have no problem with giving a deposit, but the deposit should be commensurate with the ETA. A Jpz sword polisher I know requires 1/3 paid when order is placed, 1/3 when work starts, and 1/3 on completion. Another maker I respect a lot requires a $200 non-refundable deposit, independantly of the final price. This seem like a good way to lock in a sale without putting at risk too large amounts. The problem with some top makers is that the ETA is so long (1+ year) that large deposits would become quite expensive.

JD

Fellow Makers,
I don't take a deposit unless the customer insists on giving one.
The reason is , yes customers mostly don't want to make a deposit, but also, once there is money involved, you are committed much more extensively as well to produce what you agreed upon, and when, even if it is not something the client or you want down the road...and then renegotiating item and price can be a hassle.

I recently has a sale to a client and a potential for a followup sale right away. The first knife was to his acceptance.
The first thing he did when ordering the 2nd knife, after we unfortunately agreed upon a price for a "standard" size knife was to specify a change in size.
Unknown to him, this meant creating new fitting jigs, milling jigs, patterns for blades and handles. and added at least 50% to my time and costs to create the knife with no increase in $'s.
It also meant that there was a possibility I would need to make at least a "trial" knife, then refine it for delivery....at least the way it turned out, I probably should have.
And while I could have asked for more $'s, he had just sent me a check very promptly for the first knife, ( read this as emotinally making a deposit) so I felt very obligated and committed to exhisting agreement even though the knife and my work increased dramatically.
Bottom line is that the larger folder wasn't exactly as he wanted it , he and I not only felt unhappy, but I now have one more gift for a family member coming up this holiday season and no $'s for a week's worth of frustration and effort.

I would love to operate as Don Cowles does, and still get the flyrod out occasionally. I want to make what I want and then offer to sell it, but sure would love a tutorial from Don on how to get there, what shows to do, what advertising does for you, what your excellent website does for you, etc.
PLEASE!

Stay Safe,

John, the only way I can do what I do is to have a day job. I haven't been fishing in three years.:(

OK, this one I can give an answer to :D

It depends, I have seen it work both ways. Generally I don't have a problem with deposits. I think it's more than ok to ask for one if the materials are unusual or expensive or if the knife is as mentioned before is very unusual or personal.

I think that if the knife is a standard or close to standard model offered by the maker they shouldn't ask for a deposit.

I have also noticed that it's mostly the older established knifemakers who don't ask for a deposit. They feel (correctly) that whatever they make someone will buy it. It also free's them up to make what they want.

I have, however, order some non-standard knives and not been asked for a deposit.

The 30 day pay up period I am not so sure about. Remember "Sh_t happens". It may be that when ordered the person had every intention of buying your knife, but something occured and then they couldn't. I had a situation where a week before I was notified that my knife was ready, I had a car accident. I was suddenly out $1,500 dollars. My "fun" cash was gone. I explained this to the maker and he graciously waited an extra month to get paid. Of course this goes back to that old mainstay in knifedom "communication" We had kept in contact throughout the process and had a relationship (so to speak). While paid late, he still got paid and I hope I justified his faith in me.

my experience has been similar to jerry's.
i have two randall's on order at $20 deposit each. This is less than 7%, so i don't know why they bother (as if they would have trouble selling the knives if i back out). maybe it's a good faith thing.
other makers have refused deposits unless there were non-standard materials or designs involved, but never more than $50.
.
in the case of someone wanting to commission something quite out of the ordinary, i can see nothing untoward about explaining the requirement of a large deposit for the very reasons we are discussing.

The 30 day thing is nothing more than motivation to finish the deal. I have made other things and have had to wait a LONG time for the rst of the cash. If you give a limit, they usually come through in that timeframe. I am not a cold hearted person and work around the "unavoidables."

I guess I'm to trusting,
I have yet to have anyone not pickup or pay for their knife, and all the clients that I have ever dealt with have been very honest

However! it also depends on how he/she talks and looks.

If it's at a knife show I may ask for 25%, depending on how
the conservation goes.

And less face it, if you get a 25% deposit, your materials are
covered, But not your labor.

Most of the time I ask for no deposit, because this is what
builds a good customer/client relationship.

But this is what works for me.

My experience as a custom knife purchaser from 5 different knifemakers has been the requirement of 0% deposit all the way up to 100% deposit. Usually the amount of the deposit depended on what the final cost of the custom knife would be. The lower priced knife & quickest delivery date - 100% deposit required. I have no problem with the amount of a deposit. I certainly can understand the reason for it. I'd be darned if I would want to spend my skill, materials & time on a custom knife & then be told -
"Oh, by the way, I don't think I want that knife now!"

I can only think of one time where someone got 'burned' by giving someone a 50% deposit. That was my father when he was having his kitchen remodeled. After the contractor got his deposit (a rather good amount of $$) we never saw him, again. Checked the store he was operating out of & it was as 'clean as a whistle'. My father never gave anyone a deposit after that - "You don't get paid until the job is done & I inspect it!" Never had anyone not accept his terms, either.

From a buyer's perspective, one of the big risks with placing a deposit is that the maker's priorities may change slightly as a result.

Let me provide an example.

Maker X takes a deposit from buyer Y, with every intention of making the knife to the buyer's satisfaction within a reasonable amount of time.

Maker X finds that he's running a little low on time and money, and with a big knife show coming up he postpones buyer Y's knife so he can make some products for the show.

At the show, Maker X sells some knives, gets some new orders, and spends most of the income on exotic new materials, room and board, transportation, table space, etc.

Luckily, Maker X got some good recognition at the show, received some big orders, and was able to raise his prices considerably. The new orders he's received will bring in some decent cashflow.

The balance of the price agreed to with Buyer Y, whose order is still outstanding, now represents a very small amount of money compared to the money Maker X can make on new orders or at knife shows. His opportunities and, as a result, his priorities, have changed.

Many months pass. Buyer Y begins to wonder what's going on. He doesn't want to push the issue because he's afraid that if he irritates the maker, he may never get his knife, or, worse, he'll get a hastily made product from an angry maker that no longer feels his time and effort is worth the small, incremental amount of money he'll get upon completion of the project. Further, the buyer recognizes that Maker X's skills have improved dramatically since he placed the order, and hopes that a little more patience will pay off. Perhaps the maker just lacks discipline and business sense.

But he's not sure.

Perhaps instead its not discipline but ethics that the maker lacks...

So buyer Y considers cancelling the order altogether and demanding his deposit be returned. It's the last thing he wants to do. It certainly won't do the maker any good either. The loss of a deposit, the loss of a potential repeat customer, the damage to his reputation... they're not worth it.

But it's a risk.

Many buyers don't feel comfortable making deposits, many others regret having done so in the past. Many makers don't feel comfortable accepting deposits because they recognize that there are indeed too many variables too manage effectively. Too many temptations. Too many risks...

I only ask for a deposit when I have to buy a large amount of Damascus or special high dollar handle materials that I do not normally have on hand and would not normally buy. Even then, I only ask for the amount of the materials.

All other times, I will not take payment until the knife is complete. Of course, my personal circumstances dictate that policy. I very rarely take orders and even then, only from established customers. Most of what I do is speculation because I make so few knives and issues like sending steel to heat treat and meeting delivery dates affect how I operate. I can usually steer order inquiries to a spec project I already have planned so that works out well too.

In addition, I will not make a knife as an order that I wouldn't make on my own, so even if an order is cancelled at the last minute, the knife is still marketable.

If the customer is a repeat buyer, I do not ask for a deposit.

For everyone else, I require a non-refundable deposit of $25.00. In the past few months, I've had a couple of orders back out. Yeah, I know those knives will sell eventually. My problem is, I could have made a different knife that someone else has been waiting on.

When I am ready to start a knife that requires Mother of Pearl or other high dollar material, I ask for an additional deposit of $100.00. After I receive that deposit, their knife is ready for delivery in 30 days or less.

I've also had people send me the full amount, not because I asked for it, but because they had the funds available. I let them know an approximate delivery date and they agree to that. I really don't like to be paid several months ahead. One thing that does, is improve their delivery date.

A.T.

--
"Don't you buy no ugly knife."
New knives added 9.11.02
http://customknives.com/a.t.barr/availableknives.htm

So far I haven't asked for a deposit when taking an order. I'm still new, so the orders I've received have been for fairly low end knives where the materials were not too expensive. I can see requiring a deposit if the cost of the materials is significant or the design of the knife is such that it won't have much market appeal like has been discussed. I haven't been stiffed yet, but I know it's just a matter of time so my attitude may change down the road.

As a buyer I've ordered two knives and paid about 50% up front. Regular communication with the maker has kept me calm during some (to me) quite long periods.

As a maker I haven't taken a deposit even on some work that would never have been marketable to anyone else. But I am fortunate in knowing who I am dealing with in every case, so have full comfort I'm not investing my time foolishly.

I think a maker should be allowed to ask for a deposit either in the case of an unknown customer or a unique project that requires some material purchase or experimenting up front.

For me as a maker a much more difficult question is pricing; how does one arrive at a correct price for a given piece?

Have ordered and paid for a dozen or so custom knives. I have only been asked for a deposit twice - once for about 20%, once for 50% (from a maker who could have sold my knife in a flash had I cancelled the order). OTOH, I have OFFERED to pay a deposit for EVERY knife ordered - I feel that is only fair to the maker. And, I have had specific requests from most established makers NOT to send a deposit.

In general, I feel it is fair for a maker to ask for a deposit on a piece of work. Other artists do.

Just a small note and a question from someone with much less experience than the rest of you but I have not taken a deposit on anything I have done so far. I have had customer's offer to send me a deposit but have not accepted. The knives I choose to make for these people however are all very specific and I generally do not make anything I would not find an interesting task anyway. The last order I took, the customer sent me a full payment, without my request before he even recieved pictures of the final product, of course this person has had me make things for him in the past as well and trusted my work and judgement.

Should I ask for at least a small deposit from first time buyers? I don't know, first of all I do not even start working on something until I have spoken with the person for quite some time and feel that what they want is something I want to make and that they are a person I want to work with. I don't sell for very high prices so if something doesn't go through I'm not losing as much as someone who does this full time, also I gennerally do not work with extremly expensive materials as most of my work is of the primitive look and feel and those people who want me to do work for them are after that look, if someone wants expensive materials should I ask for a deposit that perhaps pays for those materials? Most of what I just said are luxeries to me though as I don't depend on this to pay my bills so my view may be a bit skewed. Just my 2 cents and my questions to those who have been doing this for a long time and have the experience.

I DIDN'T START ASKING FOR A DEPOSIT TILL I WAS LEFT
HOLDING THE BAG. NOW IT'S MATERIAL COST UPFRONT AND
THE REST WHEN FINISHED.PEOPLE THAT PAY IT GET THIERS
THE ONES WHO DON'T, DON'T.

Here's my take: I don't ask for a deposit. If a customer backs out on the deal at the last minute, so be it. That knife will sell to someone. I don't make fantasy stuff or thing that would appeal to a Rambo wannabe. The knife I make to order would be pretty much the kind of knife I'd make if it were strictly on spec.

I've had people insist on giving me a deposit or insist on paying in full up front, but this has been their decision, not mine.

Now to address Wulf's point. No decent knife maker is going to change his priorities just because he got a bit of recognition or a couple of good size sales. If he does, then he deserves to have his name spread around (in places like THIS forum) as being a liar and thoroughly unprofessional and undependable. If a man takes a deposit, and has any sense of Honor at all, he will stand behind his word and deliver as promised.


Mike

I have no problem with giving a reasonable deposit, but when I do, that means that I have entered into a contract and the maker had best keep up his/her end of the bargain. Delivery dates should be met. I do not like it when I am asked for a deposit and the maker still misses the delivery date by two, three or more months. If you are going to require a deposit, keep up your end of the agreement as well.

Also, if the completion date is a year or two down the road, as it will be with many popular makers, I think that a deposit should not be required until the maker is just about ready to start the knife. I do not want to send money now for something I will not get for two years. Ask me to send the deposit thirty days before the knife will be started and I will have no trouble with that.

Remember, there have been some real horror stories about makers taking deposits, or payments in full and then never supplying the knives. One infamous name comes to mind of a maker that screwed so many people that he turned a lot of customers off of paying anything up front. I realize that over 99% of makers are ethical, honest people and would never do this, but once bitten, twice shy.

Keith, well said, as far as I am concerned I will only require a deposit out as far as 4 month and if something comes up that prevents me from meeting the delivery date the customer will be the first to know. Gib

I too, didn't need a deposit until I got left holding an unsaleable knife. That was 7 years ago. From then on, it's half on order, the rest when it's ready for delivery. If they can't pay, I'll hold on to it for a year. If they can't get things straight by then, they never will. I still have 3 strange looking knives laying around here.

A year ago I got so busy I had to take deposits on standard models too, or they didn't get on the list. Why should I spend time on a model that sells slow, when people are waiting on another model. I've only had one person complain about it. Many pay in full on order, just easyer on them, they say.

When I was a part-time maker I could take things less serious.

I normally do not take a deposit. I have done it maybetwo or three time and only on knives that were very unique or different then what I normally make.
Once a customer has given you ANY money, they have a good reason to call you and keep asking you where the knife is.
It will take me about a year for delivery, and not taking a deposit, normally I am the one that keeps in touch with the customer on the progress of the knife.
I do not expect any customer to like the knife if he has not handle it, and they have the option to return it for a refund. I can always turn around and sell it. You have to keep your customers happy, and you know the ones that are very valuable.
Good luck to everyone.
Ricardo Velarde

www.velardeknives.com

I hate making deposits unless it is reasonable. Such as covering for materials, or if I order a knife that is definitly out of the norm with the maker. I have paid in full one knife that i have never seen nor probably ever see. I have given up on seeing it. The maker in question made a knife for me when i was in the navy and while I was out at sea sold it to someone else for substanially more money. This would not have bothered me if he would have replaced it and had it ready for me when i got back. When I asked about it he told me the circumstances, and that as soon as he got a chance he would build me another one. I have never seen another, nor am likely to ever see it. So from now on I will never pay full price for a knife till it is built. I don't mind paying deposits for materials or for an unusual request, but when I do I expect to be notified by the maker that they recieved the funds, and to at least be notified every once in awhile as to the progress of my knife. There is nothing worse than seeing in your bank statement that your check was cashed and then to not hear from the maker. Even a e-mail is appreciated.

It looks like I'm out there alone on this one which really surprises me. I must qualify my remarks by saying I am fairly new to knifemaking but have been in business as a woodworker for about ten years. On orders I require payment in full at the time the order is taken. This refers to woodworking items or knives and my customers don't seem to mind. I realize this may turn some people off but it is the way I do business with no exceptions. The policy is clearly posted on my web site and told to all potential customers up front.

This helps me in a several ways.
1. Cash flow
2. Serious buyers only
3. Record keeping. I know every order I am working on is paid in full. All I have to do is ship it.
4. On credit card orders and checks there is usually plenty of time for these items to clear providing further protection.

I also give customers an estimated delivery date but advise them it is only an estimated date. I try to stick to my estimate but do run over a bit at times. I think my customers are fine with this. I have a reputation as a woodworker for being able to do things no one else can (or wants to). Still working on the knives.

This works for me and may not be for everyone.

The thread that will not die.... :)

I'm coming to several thoughts on this general subject... one is that deposits create, as FloridaFred said, more paperwork. I'm at the point where I'm really trying to remove as much paperwork from my life as possible. The less time I spend in the office the more time I spend in the studio and the sooner I get pieces out to customers!

I'm leaning toward small non-refundable deposits to cover the time spend doing record-keeping and design on custom orders. Say, $25 - $50 or 5 - 10% plus any unusual materials if I have to custom order them. Enough to keep people from backing out without at least thinking about it and enough to cover preliminary expenses. It is also nice to have a bigger carrot at the end of the stick. I'm also not going to make anything that I think I'd have a hard time selling. From now on I'll just say no if I don't like a design request... that's the nice thing about starting to become better known. :)

Being paid up front creates a huge legal and psychological responsibility for me and it can make it hard when a customer cancels an order. A recent case in point for me was a gentleman who called up and spent some decent time with me on the phone special ordering a $500 knife; paying extra for a rush. Before I ran in the deposit he called back and upped the knife to $750 ( silver to gold, oosic to ivory, etc... ) He insisted that I put the full amount on his card and then proceeded to call or e-mail almost every day changing the design; the cancelling the order because he felt he was overextended; then changing his mind *again* and insisting that I go ahead with the original $750 design. I spent a day forging a sellable but not on-order blade since it was a 'rush,' ( remember... I make my own damascus and carefully plan out what is coming out of each billet for orders due... ) then the guy calls *again* and cancels entirely.

At the time I really needed the cash flow and once I got the final go-ahead I thought we had a deal. I've just finished paying the guy off and made it clear I'd never do business with him again. He couldn't understand why I was annoyed with him... :confused: I never recovered any of the time I spent working out designs or talking on the phone or answering e-mails and I only charged him for the credit card processing fee which came to $5.00, because it never occured to me that someone would back out after I'd started a unique project.

_____________

I guess I can come clean on why I started this thread in the first place, since I think Les Robertson and I are on fair terms now... ;) When I started this thread I had just read an article in which Les stated that no one should ever pay more than a 25% refundable deposit and I personally thought it was sort of unfair to make such a generalized statement when so many knifemakers have so many different kinds of businesses. For a more production oriented knifemaker with employees, voluminous cash flow and a bookkeeper, a 25% refundable deposit is probably fine. For a self-employed knifemaker who makes more one-of-a-kind pieces it gets more complicated... and different knifemakers and different customers are going to prefer different arrangements. I just don't think the knife collecting public should expect uniformity when it comes to these things... since knifemakers here have stated why very polarized approaches work best for each individually; and customers have stated the same.

As knifemakers we all have things in common. (I wish I had more in common with some of your great work) However, as businessman we have the absolute right to conduct business as each of us may please. Given of course that we are honest and up front with our customers. I have the right to set conditions of a sale and of course the customer has the right to agree or go elsewhere. I think it would be a mistake for any businessman to set up rules for his business based upon what might be considered acceptable by others in the same business. Many factors must be considered in how you run your business.

Any of us may run into a customer like J. Loose had and that is a very bad experience. I also tell customers up front that once work begins on a custom order it can not be cancelled. I had one customer call me a week after placing an order which I had started and state he had lost his job and really needed the money he had paid. I refunded his money even though we had an agreement. A year and a half later he again placed the order. Many of my customers become friends and contact me often just to stay in touch. My rules protect me from financial loss and most of all aggravation. My customers are happy. Thats what matters.

Hi John,

I didn't know we weren't on fair terms. :D

I know my comments about no more than a 25% discount is not embraced by a lot of makers.

I have also stated that if a customer is ordering something unique or requesting certain materials to be used. They should expect to pay for those up front.

Also, if they are buying a very very unique knife (as in no one else in the world would want this knife). They can expect to pay full price

Makers who take deposits need to understand that they have entered into a contract. If in that contract you do not meet the expected delivery date. The customer by law has the right to ask for their money back.

For those of you who do take deposits you might want to check with the local DA or better business bureau to find out exactly what your rights are when you take a deposit. Probably best to talk with an attorney.

If you take a credit card for the deposit and do not deliver on time. The collector can contact their credit card company, file a complaint. They will include a copy of your order form (contract) point out the expected delivery date. CC Company looks at that. You took the money and did not meet your end of the contract, the money is removed from your account that day in the form of a charge back. You of course have 10 days to appeal this. By the way as of 2003 most merchant accounts now charge between $20 and $30 for a charge back.

One of the "Long" lessons I have learned over the last 18 years. Was to give as few deposits as possible. As John pointed out, there are some makers who do have secretaries or book keepers (usually it's the wife who has a spread sheet program on the computer). Oddly enough, most of these makers do not require a deposit. As they are very aware of their workload and give out a fairly accurate delivery times.

These are not the makers I worry about. It is the ones who are not disciplined enough to stick to their schedule. I have lost track with how many makers I stopped doing business with over the years who could not deliver a knife on time to save their life.

Apparently, I wasn't the only one they were doing this too. Most of these makers are now footnotes in custom knife history.

You can only screw so many customers before it comes back to hurt you. Now with the internet, you are no longer afforded years in the business before your reputation catches up with you.

I once had a maker deliver a knife 2 months late with no valid explanation. So I took 2 months to pay him, with no valid explanation. Oddly enough while he saw no problem delivering the knife (which had a 50% deposit) two months late. He took great exception to the fact I was 2 months late in paying the balance.

This is why in my book and the seminars I do. I always recommend to the collectors to ask for the "real" delivery time. Not the one that many makes give you so you'll order the knife. As they figure once you have waited 6 months you won't mind waiting another 3-4 months to get the knife.

I also recommend they get the delivery time in writing. In case there is a problem down the road. As the Knifemakers Guild and the ABS love to see copies of original paperwork. Like the order form and the cancelled deposit check.

My experience has been makers who use a 50 - 100% deposit are generally setting themselves up for failure. Unless they are putting the money in some kind of escrow type account.

For most of us it's easy to live on 150% - 200% of our yearly salary. However, as the delivery times get drug out to years instead of months. You find you have already spent the money you received for the next knife you are going to work on. You now understand that for the entire time you work on the next knife....you will receive no new income from that knife. But the bills still keep coming.

Also, what happens if you get hurt and cannot make knives anymore. Are you going to be in a position to send back thousands, possibly 10's of thousands of dollars worth of knives.

What happens if you die? Are you records such that it shows exactly who paid what deposit? Or are you going to leave that for your family to sort out.

Yes, I am playing the devil's advocate here. However, I know makers who these things have happened too.

Ultimately, it is your business to run as you see fit. As long as your customers are happy and you are making a profit, you have a good business model.

Les,

I wasn't sure *what* you thought of me after the infamous Mokume thread, but I thought it was nice of you to stop by and say hello at the NYCK Show. :)

I wish I could find the article that originally got me thinking about this... your response above certainly clarifies what I remember about it in a very positive manner. Perhaps the article ( as these things do ) left out some of the details you have mentioned above.

One thing about being behind that has happened to me is when a labor-intensive blade fails at the last minute... such as a crack or bad warp in the quench. This can put a maker way behind schedule not only with that blade, but with others. Or an injury... I just went to the hospital yesterday to have them slice up an infected finger looking for a toothpick sized splinter that broke off and got lost in there... I should be forging again by tomorrow, but I lost several precious days.

So I try to stick to schedules but things do happen... I try to let people know what is going on but some people slip through the cracks and they get to me before I get to them. I've started adding a couple months to what I really think it should take me.

Not to complain, because I love what I do, but I hope that folks can remember that the life of the self employed is already difficult, nevermind the self employed knifemaker!

The funny thing is that I do want to move toward smaller deposits, closer to your 25% suggestion... but I need to find some way to insure that I've covered some of my initial labor expenses as I've had a couple big commissions back out after starting work.

I THINK BOB WARNER STILL HAS THE BEST IDEAL HERE.
IT IS FAIR FOR BOTH PARTIES. ALOT OF POSSIBLE BUYERS
ARE IMPULSE BUYERS. THEY WOULD LOVE TO BUY A KNIFE
AND MAYBE EVEN PUT DOWN A DEPOSIT. BUT THINGS MAY
NOT GO THEIR WAY AFTER ORDERING A KNIFE SUCH AS THE WIFE:D

I prefer to pay for the knives I order at the time of ordering. Not to push the delivery date forward or try and jump the line a couple of places. I do it so that when the knife arrives, however long it takes, it's all paid for and I don't have to worry about finding the funds. I only order knives when I have the money to buy them. If I put down a deposit, I don't know whats coming round the corner, and I'd rather avoid the embarrasing phone call to the maker explaining that my car needs new shocks, so I don't want the knife. But hey, thats just me.:)

mr smat - welcome to the ckdforum.com
-and to the rest who have been watching this thread -
.
i think that the most important feature of this forum is that you may have direct contact with the ERIC, the fellow that owns & operates this CKD!
.
several makers, and several collectors have expressed opinions - we have heard from the pro - LES -
.
we have heard from some $$$$ collectors, some $$$ makers, some non-descripts
.
what is the bottom line ?????????
.
we, as a conglomerate of folks who are interested in making, buying, & collecting knives, have only one objective here - project the interest of the knife community to the rest of those who may log in!

This is an interesting thread: I read it a few days after reading an article in an old (couple of years) issue of Blade.

The author was discussing how he had just had a call from a client. Said client had put in an order FOUR YEARS previously; when the maker sent out a letter to inform that the knife was ready, the client had taken issue with the price being "quite a bit higher than originally agreed upon" (maker's words) . The maker "had to explain that of course the price was higher, I make better knives now."

If the client had just put himself on a waiting list to take whatever was made when his turn came up, I guess I can see the reasoning here. If the two parties agreed upon details and price, then....
And what if the client had put down a specified percentage of that price as a deposit? Or prepaid? Does that mean the maker had reneged on a legal contract?
Perhaps a flat deposit ($50? $100? etc.) to be applied towards the final price is more appropriate than a percentage....

Just contemplating.
Ron

Originally posted by Dingfod
Perhaps a flat deposit ($50? $100? etc.) to be applied towards the final price is more appropriate than a percentage....
Ron

IMHO, when I take an order, I give a price. If the customers does not upgrade before the knife is complete, the price is set at that time.

A.T.

New knives added 01.21.03 http://www.customknives.com/
"Don't you buy no ugly knife"

Yeah,

I don't get that- an agreed price is an agreed price. I don't see how you can justify taking an inordinate amount of time to get to something and *then* asking more for it.

A SET PRICE IS WHAT IS AGREED UPON.IF YOU NEED TO RAISE
YOUR PRICES DO IT WHEN YOU HAVE NO ORDERS.THAT WAS
NOT TO COOL:smokin :mad: THAT WHY TRY TO GET EVER DETAIL
THEN ADD THE COST.AND THAT THE PRICE:)

I know a maker whose price increases as the years go by, even on knives that have been previously ordered, for the very reason mentioned above; he gets better at making knives. This is something he tells you when you order a knife, so I don't see a problem with it. If you don't like this policy, don't order a knife. I would not want to be surprised with a price increase when the knife was ready to ship though. Just be up-front with me is all I ask; then I can make a decision based on all the facts.

Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
I know a maker whose price increases as the years go by, even on knives that have been previously ordered, for the very reason mentioned above; he gets better at making knives. This is something he tells you when you order a knife

This is different, he let's his customers know. That's as fair as it can get.

A.T.


New knives added 01.21.03 http://www.customknives.com/
"Don't you buy no ugly knife"

I do not pay down payments on knives ordered. Never thought it was a good idea personally, and have had many a maker tell me they don't want payment ahead of time anyway. I once tried to pay Jerry Fisk up front for a knife, and he told me to wait because if he was paid up front, he would just spend the money and then would feel like he was making the knife for nothing when he got to it. I have also seen too many of my friends burned by makers who took deposits or full payment, so that's why I dont do the down payments.

I'm with Danbo here. In fact, I took his advice recently when I was set to order two knives of a known and respected maker who half way through the process made it known that he requires a 50% deposit up front. This turned me off to the deal because the knives were an established model that he makes, and could have easily sold them if the deal went south. Even though the knives were very reasonably priced, and were destined to be gifts, I decided to back out of the deal. However now, I feel "funny" about any future knives from this maker. I'm fairly certain that he will not change his policy even though I related the negative experience I had in the past with my very first custom I ordered. It is a shame that there is so much inflexibilty here.
On the other hand, I have had a great experience with another maker, Craig Camerer, who didn't require payment until the knife was nearly done. He emailed me pics of the knife as it neared completion, which only whetted my appetite and desire to send off my payment because the "pot o' gold" was visible. As it stands, I will do business with him again because of the positive way he treated me as a customer. I also have a knife on order with Terry Primos who has a similar policy.
I will continue to do business with makers who practice this way.
My .02
Mongo

I have changed my view on deposits over the last little while. I now am comfortable with deposits of 15 to 20% to cover materials used to make the knife, even if the materials are not special order. This way, if I back out of the deal for some unforseen reason, the maker is not out of pocket until the knife is sold.

Edited to get my meaning across a little better.

I'm a big fan of Jens Ans?, and have two of his knives. The first was a sheepsfoot fully loaded. Damasteel, gold plug, file work, nice lizard skin sheath.

Jens didn't ask for a deposit, and didn't know me. He told me he would have the knife ready in about 6-8 months. He would follow this up with an occasional email letting me know the progress.

Sure enough, the knife was ready when he said it would be. I sent him a money order for the knife and received it a week later.

(keep in mind I live in Canada, and he lives in Denmark!)

The second knife was a full custom job, one he had never attempted before. A Persian fighter in Damasteel with mammoth ivory handles, file work, heat treated screws (also fileworked) and a spiffy sheath covered in snakeskin.

because of the cost of materials we worked out a system of payments. 1/3 on order, 1/3 about half way through, 1/3 when the knife was finished. I suspect he didn't feel comfortable about asking for a deposit, but in my mind he was totally justified.

I will also say this. He kept in contact with me and sent me quick emails telling me what stage the knife was at.

I'm now planning another knife for him to do. We've never met or talked on the telephone, but I feel quite secure in doing business with him, and will send him a deposit anytime.

Hi I'm new on this forum but I'll give my .02 on this one. I see nothing wrong in asking 1/2 deposit down on anything that is a custom knife. Now if a maker has a trademark series of knives he is known for then I have a bit of a problem with asking for a 1/2 down deposit on those knives. On those types of knives I think it would be a good deal for makers to ask for a 10-20% deposit. If the buyer comes up on hard financial times and can't afford the knife anymore the maker keeps the deposit. No hard feelings.

Deposits are nothing more than a good faith agreement that enable a craftsman to gather the materials to do the job without dipping into his personal funds.

In my world, there's no discounts and no friends when doing business. The only thime I've ever been burned in business was when I was doing something for a friend... Live and learn.

I see many views being expressed here, but it all still seems to come down to one thing - communication. If you know up front what the story is, then you both buyer and seller have an understanding of what is going on.

I can understand why a knifemaker would want a deposit on a special order knife. If the materials are costly (mammoth, ivories etc.) or if the knife design is far from the norm for that maker or just plain wild. On a standard model using standard material I see no reason for a deposit.

I understand the concept that a deposit is a sign of your seriousness when it comes to buying a knifemakers craft. It's an assurance to the maker that you the buyer are not wasting his/her time. On the other hand I don't feel that a maker is justified in asking for more money than originally asked for. Even if he was upfront about the fact that he is a better maker 1, 2 or 3 years later. Well 2 years later I would hope that you are better at your craft. I certainly hope that I am better as an engineer a year from now. I will have learned more and experienced more and hopefully gotten better in my field. Can I make a contract to do a project and then tell them well it's going to cost more now, I'm a better engineer. Quite frankly I would never have been hired in the first place if I had the nerve to actually say that. There is no field of endevour where you can tell people "well I'll be better next year and that's when I'll get to you so it will cost more than now". Of course that's the case every day you leasrn more and perhaps get better at what you do. But how does the collector know that your any better? Unless the buyer has an old knife to compare your new knife. Just bump your price up front if you feel that justified about it and stick to it. Don't play these games. Quite honestly If, the maker accepts a deposit and then changes the price, I believe the maker is in breach of contract. That would be my case in my business.

Most knifemakers I've worked with usually do not ask for a deposit. They usually ask for the full payment sometime within the last 2 weeks of when they think they will finish the knife. That way when you send a check it can clear and the knife be finished at the same time. Then they just ship it. Have I given deposits, yes for costly materials and in some cases when starting with a new maker. Repeat biz with the same maker usually means I need not give a deposit.

sorry for the rant.

Jerry, I share your opinion on raising the price. What has not been mention in this thread is honesty, you mentioned that a deposit indicates that the customer is serious about the purchase.
After a knife maker has had a number of byers back out without even a call or email saying thy don't want the knife and won't answer the phone or reply to emails. This is one reason for deposits. You have to remember that a knife byers can and will find out all he can about me, I can't do this about him, I have a lot of trust in my fellow man, but after a while enough is enough.
I am a knife maker that is known (I have a web site) but not to the point that if I build a knife for some one and thy don't take it I will have no trouble selling it, it may take a while.
I sometimes think that all knife byers that respond to these threads believe that all other byers are as good as there word as thy are.
Hope this makes sense. Gib

GIb,

I do understand where your coming from. I agree as well. I think that when you are dealing with unknowns you try to make sure that they are serious. I think that it makes sense to ask for deposits from someone if you have never had dealings with them. However, if the knife is a standard model you make, not something special or out of the ordinary. I don't think you should ask for one.

I have also been told by various makers that they do not want any deposit at all, for the reason stated before by Jerry Fisk, they maker feels as if they are making the knife for nothing. That's not really true, but it feels that way as the money has already been spent.

Jerry,
Thanks for your understanding. I only take a deposit from people that I don't know and even then last summer I made a sale to customer that had a string of Gift Shops that specialized in my style of product (Indian, Old West, Buckskin and such) the man bought every knife that I had at a good price, then ordered 5 more Bowie's and when thy were done he refused to take the order. this is what I bothers me. I finley sold the knives at a better price but it took 8 months. If I were a well known maker that had a 6 to 12 months waiting list I wouldn't take deposits they are too much trouble. Gib

"If I were a well known maker that had a 6 to 12 months waiting list I wouldn't take deposits they are too much trouble."

I think Gib said it for many of us makers who aren't to that point yet in our knifemaking careers.
I am fortunate enough to have a customer who just ordred his 3rd knife from me in the last 4-6 months. I don't want a deposit from him. As a matter of fact, good business or not, I don't want a check until he sees and handles the knife I made for him. He is then free to send the knife back for any reason he may have, or he can send me a check...the check last time was mailed the day he received the knife.
I would like to believe that is the way every maker and customer could do business. Am I a little bit idealistic....maybe. Could I get burned...sure, but haven't yet. Thank Goodness. It sure makes the whole experience more fun.

As for the exposure to folks you don't know at all, and/or who might not know you, working with a couple of top representatives like BladeGallery.com and Custom Knife Gallery of Colorado has been a great experience for me. Their fees are definitely worth the cost, and they handle all the financial arrangements of the sale, so whether or not to take a deposit is not a concern for the maker.

Peace After Justice,

bottom line for me as a newbie - put out a list, either on the net, in a catalog, or whatever means of conveyance, a 'standard line'. by the same means, let it be known that you will / or will not be ameanable to accepting custom orders at the same specs, cost +, with the cost + paid upfront. no specified time of delivery unless a person is willing to pay for the priviledge.
.
a couple of years ago, i found a new maker on the net. a year later, les r was touting him on his own site, mentioned the name here and in several other forums. the fellow showed up on even more forums touting his wares, with the idea of taking orders. he was even written up in the rags. pissmeoff!! i have wood with him for handles, orders for two knives, any # of emails going on, promises that my stuff will be next out of the shop, BULL####
.
as all of ckd members continue to tout ---- be honest, up front, or get out of here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Wayne, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel. :lol

###

I don't take full payments or deposits up front. For me it 's the same thing that has been mentioned before -- it almost feels like you're making the knife for nothing when you get down to that one on the list. It's strictly a psychological thing, but it's there none-the-less.

It's just a lot more pleasurable making one knowing that when you're finished, there's going to be some money coming in. You can dream about all the neat things you can do with the money when it comes in. The dreams are always shattered by reality, but it's still fun to pretend that you're going to get to spend the money on something fun.

Now contrast that with working on one that was already paid for. You're working just as hard, but there's nothing to look forward to. The money was already spent -- and not on anything fun either. It went on that new alternator for your wife's car, and to the plumber for that danged leaking toilet that was so old, they don't even make replacement parts for it anymore.

Big difference.

In one case you're thinking, "Oh boy, I get to make this one now". :)

In the other case you're thinking, "Oh boy, I've got to make this one now". :(

Now I have had a couple of return customers who just begged me to let them pay up front for their next knife so that they wouldn't have to worry about spending the money. I have reluctantly accepted the payment up front just because they were good customers and I wanted to make them happy. It sure does take the fun out of it though.

One thing in my favor is that I have a standard line of proven designs. I don't do the "my design or your's" thing. When a customer wants something that is not within the parameters of what I do, I offer to help them find someone who does what they want, but I won't take the order myself.

I won't take any way out orders either, like a handle wrapped with a pachyderm's cod sack, or a baboon's butt cheeks. So if the deal falls through, I've got something that will sell anyway.

Originally posted by Terry Primos


I won't take any way out orders either, like a handle wrapped with a pachyderm's cod sack, or a baboon's butt cheeks.

Wouldn't either one of those make the handle a little slippery?:D

Right on Wayne, well said. There are a lot of politics in this business that hurt small makers. We also need to think about cash flow this enters into this subject more than a lot of people think. Gib

well from now on I am only going to order from people that have built a reputation for customer relationship, and good business practice. I don't buy knives for resale, only for what i like. I'll just have to add that to the criteria for knives I buy. I just bought a knife from Dusty Moulton. About every 3 weeks I got an update on the status of the knife. I will have no problem ever ordering from him again. Or paying a deposit for something outlandish that i don't need, or just for his aggrevasion in trying to make it. But will only do that for now on with makers I have ordered from before and have good business and customer relation skills.

Hi Wayne,

Since you brought my name into it. This is a perfect example of why you don't give a maker a deposit. I have a pretty good idea of who you are talking about.
He still owes me knives from 18 months ago. However, Im not sweating it because I didn't give him a deposit.

Hi Gib,

I think you might be misusing the word "political" in this case.

When I was first starting out as a custom knife dealer, I too had a tough time. The makers wouldn't sell me knives or if they did it was with very little discount.

The reason was not politiics, it was business. I was no body in custom knives. I didn't have an advertising budget, I only set up at the small NKCA Shows ($25 a table) which were primarily factory knife shows. I probably didn't cover expenses for 4 years. I didn't even have a catalog to start, just a price list.....one page.

What I did was sit down and do a basic SWOT (Strength's, Weakness's, Opportunities and Threat's) assessment. At the time I didn't know it was it's name.

By doing this with my direct competitors. I found out what I needed to do to be more successful. None of it was based on politics. It was all based on good sound business sense and techniques.

Gib, it's not easy. It takes a lot of time and effort to come up with a good business/marketing plan. Even this may not be enough. SBA says 80% of all small business' will fail in the first 3-5 years. Usually from the owner's inability to effectively execute their business plan. Also, the lack of flexibility to modify the plan as circumstances warrents.

So don't blame politics, like most of us starting out in any business. What your feeling is growning pains. In corporations all over the world, right now people are trying to figue out what to do to improve our business.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the political issues when it comes to knife makers. I have been to more than my share of business meetings at the Guild Show!

Gib, you already know the process, as does every maker on this forum.

Where your at....where you want to go and how you get there.

Oh, and if you do want to get in the Magazines....advertising dollars sure to go a long way to making that happen.

Remember, just like you the magazines are a business. They too have to keep the cash flow....flowing. No politics there, just good old fashioned capitalism!

Les,
Don't tell me it isn't politics when you go to the first show you have ever been to and see the first hand made/custom knife for the first time and you ask a Purveyor if he will help sell your knives and he tells you that he only sells knives from well known makers and that I am not well known. And you receive a very cool welcome at that show. Check out

http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13356&pagenumber=3

Les I think that this is more wide spread than we would like to admit.
As far advertising is concerned I thought that the magazines were there to promote the business/ hobby.
Gib

Hi Gib,

I think you are confusing politics with business.

There are only about 10 nationally known custom knife dealers. More than likely they have spent millions of dollars developing their business. Most have developed their own business guidelines. So if this dealer has determined that he will only work with established makers. Then that is his perogative. Gib, thats not politics, that is business.

For my part I base my purchase decisions primarily on "quality for the money". The name is inconsequential to me. As many of the world class knife makers I work with today were not well known when I bought my first knife from them.

How often to you look at and change your formal, in wiriting, business plan? I change mine every 4-6 months. About a year ago as I saw that the economy was slowing. I made the decsion to start reducing my standing inventory. Changing to more of a "just in time" inventory. In other words I set a goal of pre-selling 60% of all new knives I had coming in. What this did was free up captial to take advantage of knives being sold by collectors.

I understood that for 2003 it would be more important to be "liquid" than to have standing inventory. This strategy has paid big dividends. I currently have a smaller inventory than I have had in over 10 years. While this past March was the best March (for sales) I have had since I started my business.

April has been excellent as well. During this year I have stopped working with one maker, started working with two new makers as well as expanded product lines with 4 makers who I have worked with over the last 4 years.

This expansion and contraction is based on market conditions and client input. There are no politics involved here.

Gib, I'll grant you that there may be politics and favoritism involved in custom knives. The key is to remove yourself from it.

Each business must find it's own niche.
You want to be successful and remove politics and perceived favoritism. Then create a style of knives that the world craves. Spend the money, time and resources to create a marketing plan that will help the world beat a path to your doorstep.

It's not easy, but you will find the harder you work...the luckier you get.

ok guys, pardon my vent. i just get sick of hearing about those who are less than trustworthy in this business which, by most accounts, is one of the more honest businesses around. that goes for makers and customers.
.
les - i hope that you did not take the mention as an affront - it came to mind because you had your name on the recommendation published in Blade. it just goes to show that even the experts can take one in the shorts sometimes.
.
terry - send me a quote on some baboon buttcheek - that aught to make for a really colorful sheath :lol. i can't find it in the weaver catalog!
.
thanx

Hi Wayne,

No problem. However, I didn't take one in the shorts. I seldom if ever "take one in the shorts" :D

If I had 30 folders from that maker today. They would all be gone by Friday. So from a purely business (as an in demand maker I was 100% correct).

He is a part time maker who is called aways for weeks at a time by his "real" job. So far this year he has made exactly 0 knives (due to a move and his job).

Im not saying what he has done is correct. I am saying that part time makers are seldom if ever in control of their own time.

Im sure if you asked for your wood back he would send it to you. Probably reimburse you for your shipping costs and apologize profusly.

Most custom knife makers are part timers. As such their time is not their own to a large degree. This holds true for a lot of full time makers as well. For those who have never worked for themseleves. You would be amazed at how your time can be gobbled up by outside distractions.

Since you don't have a "real" job and your time is your own. You can come and go as you please. I laugh every time I hear some one para-phrase that thought.

I agree with you though that by in large the custom knife business is a very honorable one.

Just as custom knife buyers should buy what they like.

Custom knife makers should run their business they way it will suit them and their customers the best. Obviously, this thread has shown that different makers have different needs for their business.

If their clients can live with the makers guidelines than ultimately that is what should be done.

Les,
I have just the past 30 days went over what I was doing. I have a brand new web site thanks to Chuck at Wild Rose Trading Co.
Check it out and tell me what you think. I also will be concerating on knives meant for Reactors. Buckskinners and the Single Action Shooting Society, the fastest growing shooting sport in history. If you haven't tried it you should you might like it. As well as knife lovers who like Bowies.
I would sell you a knife with out a deposit and even give you a discount. If you get a inquiry for my type of knife please keep me in mind.
Gib

So this thread has come full-circle for me; and it has certainly taken on a life of it's own!


I've decided to stop taking deposits at all.

However I've just had a string of bad luck and due to injuries or increased quality control I have gotten behind. Some customers have asked for firm delivery dates and here is where I've made a huge mistake. I should have absolutely been firm in expressing that the Craft of Knifemaking simply doesn't tolerate firm delivery dates unless you're willing to cut corners. When you're making one of a kind pieces with specific damascus composite constructions and embellishing with complicated jewelry techniques there are simply too many steps that involve the potential for complete failure after investing a significant amount of time and energy. Not only do you lose the time you've already invested, but you lose the time you spend catching up.

I really love the concept of commissions and working with someone who appreciates my aesthetic and wants a personal piece of it. ...But as several makers have noted, they can certainly be a pain!

One thing I have learned for sure in this thread is that I just gotta have a Primos Baboon Buttcheek Bowie! :D :smokin

* Note to self -- change Danbo's order from Premium Ring Gidgee to yellow pine wrapped with Baboon Buttcheek.

Terry and Danbo,
Can't wait to see a pic of this innovative creation.

please post! or mabe someone who can edit pics might post their idea of what Danbo wants Terry to "build" or do you grow this knife?

Thanks for the smiles, Guys!

Aaaaarrrggghhh! What have I done? :eek: :D

Excellent thread. I am relatively new to buying custom knives, so my initial strategy (whenever possible) has been to buy only finished products for sale by the maker or through dealers.

That way, no surprises or hassles related to the timing of a knife's delivery or an up-front deposit. However, my purchases have been limited to "standard" models that the maker lists and made from materials that did not require the procurement of something exotic (e.g. Baboon flank hide).

In the instances where orders have been made, makers who created batches of handmade standard knife models would not accept a deposit.

Practices I observe probably support the normal business practice of requiring deposits in the instances where an item deviates from the normal fare sold to a "typical" customer.

Excellent thread. I am relatively new to buying custom knives, so my initial strategy (whenever possible) has been to buy only finished products for sale by the maker or through dealers.

That way, no surprises or hassles related to the timing of a knife's delivery or an up-front deposit. However, my purchases have been limited to "standard" models that the maker lists and made from materials that did not require the procurement of something exotic (e.g. Baboon flank hide).

In the instances where orders have been made, makers who created batches of handmade standard knife models would not accept a deposit.

Practices I observe probably support the normal business practice of requiring deposits in the instances where an item deviates from the normal fare sold to a "typical" customer.

Originally posted by Geode
deviates from the normal fare sold to a "typical" customer.


I make one knife at a time, I do not make "batches" of knives. I do good to make 75 knives a year. So when I work on a specific (altough standard model) knife, and that buyer backs out, sure I will sell it, but I *could* have been working on a different knife for a customer that is on my wait list.

That's why I require a $25.00 deposit from people I don't know. A lot of posters on this forum and the Internet do not use their real name. When I receive an order via email, I have no idea if the name is real. Most time sure, but ya never know.

$25.00 ain't much, but at least it shows the buyer is for real. When a person calls and has a good reason to cancel an order, I give the deposit back.

A couple of weeks before I start the knife, I contact the buyer and not only confirm his/her wishes, I confirm he/she still wants the knife. When the knife is completed and for some reason they won't complete the transaction, they lose the deposit.

Sincerely,

A.T.

"Don't you buy no ugly knife"
http://www.customknives.com/blade_2003.htm
New knives added 6.08.03

As a buyer I believe that is perfectly acceptable to ask for a deposit on custom work . If I were a maker, I would ask for one???50% is fair as it keeps both parties invested. I have paid deposits more than once.

I also understand that knife making is an art and I do not have those skills, but truly enjoy using and collecting the works of others.

But, if you accept a deposit you have entered into an agreement that should be defined on the front end. If no firm delivery date can be given, that can be understood. If one is given, the buyer should have some expectation of receiving the knife and if long unavoidable delays occur a prompt refund should be offered.

Given a recent experience on a high end bowie??? I?ll be more careful in the future.

Just my .02

If y'all can stand a to hear somebody else point of view i'll throw in my 2 cents!

I don't have a problem with paying a deposit on knives as long as the make is willing to at least come close to the estimated time of deliver! I've got two knives out there with deposits on em that are past there due dates with not a word of update from the makers!

If the maker as got a back log he should say so up front and contact the buyer when he's ready to start the knife and then ask for a deposit! That way nobody as money tied up for a long period of time!

I've payed as much as 10% to 1/2 and i don't see a problem with asking for the deposit i under stand the maker as to buy material and pay his bills! Because hey i get mail from that bill guy every month myself!:D

I don't mind paying deposits, but I'll never pay 50% up front again like I have been doing. I have just been burned one to many times. If you have a long waiting list, then call me when you get to my knife, and I'll pay the deposit then. I'll even pay a small fee upfront to insure the knifemaker I am serious. But there are too many out there wanting big deposits, making promises, and then not delivering. I understand ever one comes across some bad luck, delivery dates have to be pushed back, but not many are being proffesional about it. So I definatly have changed the way I order knives and from whom I order.

Originally posted by JimmySeymour
I don't mind paying deposits, but I'll never pay 50% up front again

I agree. I ask for $25.00 when I take the order. When I am ready to >>>START<<< the knife, and if it has high dollar material, I ask for an additional deposit. If it doesn't require additional material, I only confirm the knife order at that time.

A.T.

My next show is the SouthEastern Show
in Winston-Salem, NC, September 6th and 7th.
Please come by and say hello.
"Don't you buy no ugly knife"
http://www.customknives.com/

As one of the knifemakers out there who is currently running behind, I have to say that I am going to start moving completely away from taking orders or doing custom work. I am currently almost a year behind on a couple pieces; and even though I stopped taking 50% deposits quite some time ago there are still a few pieces with deposits from back then that need to be finished.

Complex damascus knives take a long time to make and when one goes bad in the quench or when an etch reveals a hidden flaw it sets all the rest back by weeks; especially when you are trying to make it to the top levels of the craft. I have recently very reluctantly put some fine blades aside that had what I used to consider minor flaws.

Hopefully the fact that my name and my work will without a doubt increase in value makes up for the delays. Knives are my passion but the one-of-a-kind, handmade ones that I want to make are simply not good business. I've been moving into minor production jewelry to support knife-making as a result. This has been a serious learning experience for me as well as the collectors who are currently waiting me out. I hope folks can be patient with me as well as other new makers out there who are figuring out how to make it in the worst economy since the Great Depression...

John,

You post reminds me of converstations I have had with you and other makers on CKD.

Ladies and Gentlemen....Talent alone is not enough.

You have to market yourself and your knives.

When there are a combination of new custom makers showing up everyday and a slow economy. Marketing your self and your knives is even more important.

Being a full time knife maker and relying on this as your sole source of income. It is almost imperative that in the beginning you need to be a part-timer. Giving yourself the ability to put every penny you make from sales back into the business.

Not just buying more machines and materails. But money for advertising, attending shows and keeping your web site up to date.

As someone who has been in custom knives full time for the last 8 1/2 years (with this being my sole source of income). I have to adjust my business plan every 6-8 months. I have to make continual assessments as to not only short term requirements. But long term market trends as well. Quite frankly, being able to anticipate market trends 6-18 months out has been a huge advantage.

Contrary to what people think, there are still tens of thousands of collectors buying custom knives. However, buyers are becoming more selective on what they will spend money on.

Many have come to understand that their collection is fluid. As opposed to 5 years ago when many collectors never really thought about what they would get for a knife that they bought if they went to sell or trade it. Now the word "investment" is in the mind of the collector.

The point to all this is understand the if you are going to make a living making custom knives. You have to treat it as a business. Makers who want to be successful (in a business sense) have to create what the market wants. This can also include creating your own niche within a market (Dan Winkler and Virgil England come to mind). But understand there will be a lot of lean years with no guarantee that you will ultimately be successful.

John is showing himself to be the artist/business man. While he wants to create art on his own terms. He understands that you have to incorprate pratical business elements to pay the bills. He is doing so by now creating jewlery to supplement his income, so he continue to make the quality product he and his customers want.

An added benefit of making jewlery as well as knives. Gives him avenues into two markets with potential for cross over sales in each. Thereby providing line extension possiblities for each market. With the potential for entering and/or creating a niche market he was not in before.

Part of my job with the makers I work with is to get them additional exposure. Get them into new markets and or improve their position in a current market. This is done through several avenues.

The name of the game is introducing you and your work to the tens of thousands of custom knife buyers world wide

Question: What have you done today to introduce your knives to another potential buyer?

To Les Robertson...... regarding your posts....yes, you are a wonderful human being, a most savvy businessman, and truly the backbone and the trendsetter of the custom knife industry. You're the go-to guy, the guy with the crystal ball, the dream maker, the heartbreaker.:)


As for deposits, I totally agree with A.T. Barr. I request a small ($30) deposit on all orders except from previous customers.

Why just $30? Well, it's really not about the money.

It's about the DEAL, the agreement, between the maker and the customer. That $30 tells me I have a serious buyer and he is entitled to my full attention.

I'll put him in my order book, i'll send him an order confirmation detailing the knife he is purchasing, the sheath system, the price, shipping cost, the balance due, and the estimated delivery date.

When I am ready to start the customer's knife, I'll send a request for payment of the balance. The payment comes in, I finish and ship the knife.

It's as simple as that. I've done it just a few thousand times. It works fairly well.

Yes, it is not infallible. What is in this world? Most of the problems with the system are MY fault. Have I screwed the system up? Yes. Have I recovered...Yes.

And, when I missed a delivery date (I've missed my share) , I have never been contacted by the Attorney General of the US, my state Attorney General, the FBI, Consumer Affairs, Credit Card companies, or whatever.

Regards
AL P

Right on Al, well said. Gib

Hi Al,

I agree with most of what you said about me! :D

After re-reading the thread. I have come to the conclusion (again), that each maker has to determine how they are going to run their business.

It's a tough business. Takes some of you "old timers" who have paid their dues to pass on their wisdom. ;)

Les,

As usual, a most gracious response.

Al P.

Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
I know a maker whose price increases as the years go by, even on knives that have been previously ordered...

Keith, are you saying that if I agree to purchase a knife from this maker today (and maybe send a deposit to underline that purchase agreement) and he confirms to me that his current price on that knife is $900 - by the time my ordered knife is ready to ship he will inform me that my knife will now cost $1,200.?

Sorry, I would NEVER order a knife from that maker - I don't care how good his knives are, how great his reputation, how many people are fighting each other to be 'blessed' with one of his knives. And I don't care if he tells me up front that this is his standard "policy". I'll spend my money with a maker who can quote me a firm price when I AGREE to buy a knife. That's MY standard "policy".

right on, holger!

Bumping this conversation as it is a relevant topic 20 years later. The inflation of materials these days can strain budgets when doing one off's. If we have like what wood costs during covid, those unexpected changes can be pretty harsh to the build price. Any of these price changes in materials can be significant.

One key part is the separation to not float deposits for outside uses. I know it happens so it is the maker to uphold a reliable, honest standard to their collectors by delivering as promised.