Hey ,

I am getting ready to make a couple more swords here at the Jones shop and would like to know what steel you would recommend for a high performance blade.
In the past I have made several swords out of 440C that performed quite well under cutting tests. Even showing a good range of flexibility.
Should I stick with what I've used in the past or go with one of those sexy new crucible steels?
Any thoughts?

How about Crucible S7 XL?

It is their high-purity version of AISI S-7. It seems like a shock-resisting, highly polishable steel would be right up your ally.

It is my understanding from a couple sword makers that S7 performed poorly. I'm not sure why, but the fact that there are NO makers using it, suggests it hasn't caught on despite the appealing numbers. It may well be that it deforms easily, and that wouldn't be nice. It might also not be available in sizes we need.

Why not use CPM-3V? It's as impact resistant as anything, plus it takes and holds a good edge as well. S30V is probably not far behind, if you want to go with stainless. It's impact resistance is at least that of A2, which I've made several swords from with good results. In tool steels, 5160 gets the nod, I'm told.

Touche. I guess that's why people actually pay you to make them, and not me.

Still, when I hear about unexpected poor performance, I always suspect poorly-controlled HT.

Jerry,
I know that 5160 is an excellent choice as far as a spring steel suitable for longer blades that require the quality of impact resistance. CPM 3V? You know a WHOLE lot more about that than I will ever know. Do you know anything at all about CPM 9V??? Especially for this use or application?

You know, I am just about to the point of giving Bruce a call about some 3V and giving it a try "just to see". No, I ain't makin' no swords!

Craig

Craig, the problem with those darned numbers, as with CPM-9V, is that you have to look at all of them. 9V hardens about like S7, which it looks a lot like. Neither get very hard, and are therefore subject to impact deformation. I think unless a steel hardens above Rc60, and can be drawn back from there, it likely suffers this problem. Impact toughness is just one issue with swords; you also don't want the edge looking like a potato chip after sparring for awhile.

I also wondered about 9V for the longest while, based on the Crucible bar chart. Then I looked in the book and saw it's tempering chart.

BTW, this is the most common failure mode of CPM-3V at Rc59, but only in a minor way. After impact with something very hard, you might see a small (1/16" or so) flat spot on the edge. Most steels would have chipped. I did have a customer chip a 3V edge, but he worked at it. He tried to slice into the beveled false edge of an Rc61 ATS-34 fighter with a razor sharp, Rc61, CPM-3V blade. Yep it chipped about 0.050" of the edge.

Jerry,
Rock, scissors, paper come to mind... :)

Craig

Thanks for the info., Jerry!

Now I just have to decide whether to use A2 or 3V.

I wonder if I could talk Paul Bos into doing a hard edge/soft back treatment on it for me like he did for the sword you made a while back?

Phillip, Paul has vowed he will never do that again, and is very annoyed with me for even mentioning it. PLEASE, don't ask him to do it. He just finished with six CPM-3V swords for me so I'm already at the top of his least-liked makers list. :)

We already knew that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool:

:eek:


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:eek:

Jerry-
So I see you are getting some more sword blades heat treated....
SO WHERE IS MY BOLO?!?!?!?!?!?!

Look, over the past year, and especially since I handled your stuff at Blade Show '2000 and the subsequent purchase of the Gaijin Wakizashi, my list of "to buy" knives has dwindled significantly.
It went from about 50 knives to only a few including a Rinaldi Armageddon, a Livesay WASP, a few Mineral Mountain models and most of the rest are HOSSOMS!!!! GET BUSY!!!!!!!!
;) ;) ;) !!!!!!!

Peace-
Cam

Cam, your bolo is hardened and sits on my bench awaiting my attention. Unfortunately it sits under a half dozen other blades that I've even more late on. I'm sorry about the delay, but please bear with me.

I'm just messing with you, Jerry... please, take your time. One can't rush perfection!!!!!

You stated in an email that it would be identical to the one pictured on your page. If you have not done the handles yet I would like to get black micarta with hollow stainless pins (if this is possible) so it will match my waki. If this is not possible or you have already done the handles, then no big deal.

I just happened by this page last night by chance. I never knew it existed. I am a member of a few other boards here at EZ Boards so it was a treat to find this one. Looks like a nice place to take up more of my time!!!!

When is the next show you will be appearing at in the area? Any coming up soon?

Peace-
Cam

If by high performance you mean a blade that holds an edge, doesn't chip, and is extremely flexible, then you'll do well to austemper the blade. L-6 is real nice, 5160's good too, and 1084 will work quite well also. Gotta love that lower bainite. If you do it right, you can rockwell it out around 57RC max and 55 on the low end with good temperature controls.

Stainless steel will never offer high-performance in a sword. The flexibility just isn't there. S-5 can make a good sword, and I suspect S-2 will also, although I've never tried it.

Whoa! Never say "Never".

I've made stainless swords that flex - a lot. I've made differentially tempered stainless swords. And I believe I can make a sword from the new S30V stainless that could ding the edge on most every steel tool you've named with the possible exception of S5, in which case it would probably be an even match. I'm not aware of much being done with S5, so I don't personally know its capabilities. S7 proved very disappointing to most who tried it.

CPM-3V might be the best sword steel produced, except maybe CPM-1V, and at Rc59/60 it will easily cut the edge of an Rc57 sword.

There is a lot more to a sword than the name on the steel. Edge retention isn't a primary concern, nor is flexibility per se, except as that quality is usually consistent with impact toughness. To much flex is bad, and that's one of the purposes of a fuller, to reduce flexibility. Not chipping is key, since it reflects inherent weakness in the steel and/or blade/edge geometry. If an edge chips, the sword can probably be broken. In fact that's a primary tactic of Filipino Espada y Daga. Chip the opponent's edge with the spine of your sword, then deliver a hard blow to the side of the blade between the chip and the point to break the opponent's blade in two.

The fact is that most people making swords these days are forging them; they make good and even great swords. That really doesn't mean though that swords must be forged or that steels other than those which are forged are necessarily weaker. The super steels being produced are very difficult to forge, and would be exceedingly difficult in a sword length blade. They can however be shaped by stock removal and can produce superior blades, when properly shaped and tempered.

For someone getting started in swords by stock removal I would suggest A2 or 5160. A step up would be S30V or CPM-3V. Personally, I think CPM-3V is the best. Any of the steels mentioned above are fine for forging. You have to remember though that a sword is not a long knife; it has much greater demands in terms of impact strength and edge durability. And it doesn't need to shave or skin 12 deer. Japanese swords were great more for their superb blade and edge geometry as well as outstanding swordsmen. Improperly used they would bend (permanently) and be rendered useless. They also broke.

OK, I'm calm now... :)

I've never tried the CPM's, and i'm sure that with the proper heat-treatment you can get some really great blades like you have. I have tried A-2, and I can say that I was disappointed with it. If there's no distal taper in the blade (left thick), it will hold up, but when ground to traditional geometries to get a good balance and cutting efficiency, the steel fails in flexing, even with a differentially hardened blade. These blades were done in the japanese-style cross-section and arond 20 inches in length. Never tried a european design, so it might make some difference.

I also agree that forging vs. stock removal is a moot point. The heat-treat is where performance is at.

And also, I"d like to point out that a Japanese sword is perfect for what it's designed to do--never go edge to edge. A european-styled sword will win in flexibility and impact resistance. It's really chosing the right sword for the right opponent, and an apples to oranges comparison.

I think I'll look into the CPM's after your post, though. I still don't believe that it will make a better blade (or even one comparable) to a 5160 blade, but I might be wrong--one reason these forums are so great. If I can get the 3V to perform like one of Howard Clark's bainite/martensite L-6 blades I'll switch over. Still, those grain boundaries scare me..............

One of the first swords I ever made was of A2, and it passed every test a highly qualified martial artist could put it through, including cuting through some serious amount of bone. It was too heavy, and lacked the speed of my later swords, but the steel held up in tests that are normallly applied to swords. I think the rub is in those "traditional geometries". Flat ground blades require a distal taper to get them to balance; hollow ground blades can maintain a heavy spine throughout their entire length. The same guy who tests my blades has tested blades (fighting bowies) from other makers and has broken some flat ground blades made with A2, 5160, and 1084/10N15 damascus. In all cases the blades failed at the point, where they were just too thin to support heavy impacts. In all those cases, the makers were able to reprofile or make a new blade to handle the stresses, but the cost was length and/or balance.

Here's a pic of an 20-1/4" A2 Espada that weighs 18 oz. total. It's made with 3/16" steel and because of the deep hollow grinds maintains that full width to about 3-4" from the point, and only narrows significantly in the last inch or so. The balance point is about 4" in front of the guard, but because the whole thing is so light it feels like an average size bowie knife. For the Filipino style of fighting, speed is life.

http://hossom.com/pix/img10.gif

The thickness of the blade at the edge is about 0.080", because the apex of the hollow grind is well above there, allowing the grind to flair at it approaches the edge. This provides a heavy convex edge that tolerates impacts while cutting well. The blade is slightly thinner about 1/2" above the edge than at the edge.

If you look at the composition of CPM-3V it is an unusual high alloy steel. It is 0.8% Carbon, 7.5% Chromium, 2.75% Vanadium, and 1.75% Molybdenum. With the Vanadium occupying a good portion of the Carbon, most of the Chromium is free. This is an extremely fine grained steel. In fact the grain structure is so fine, it won't take a polish because the grains scatter white light. CPM-1V is even better, but you can't get it in anything besides blocks. It's impact toughness is about twice that of S7. I have a 1/4" slab of 1V, which I saw on for a few minutes each week. One day it might make a blade. :)

You probably won't like grinding 3V. When I make a sword from it, it is a very full day at the grinder and about 3 days of aching muscles after that.