A well-to-do neighbor, having seen some of my folders (from KitKnives), has asked me to make her some "fancy" kitchen knives.
Given my experience (or lack thereof) I want to keep this project simple (she'll be paying for my education).

I'm planning on getting cutlery blades from Jantz and thought I'd just go with simple scales, but in Ivory Micarta for something a little different.

Is there any reason why I couldn't use Barry Posner's SS./Brass mosaic pins (from Texas Knife) for a simple but "fancy" effect? Again, the idea here is to keep as easy a learning curve as possible for me, and still give her some of the drama I know she's looking for.

Dennis

PS Did I mention, these will be my first ever fixed blades? My neighbor is prepared to pay me upwards of $200 per knife!!!
This is like winning a scholarship.

Dennis,

First off, congradulation of the commissions!!

As you know I'm even newer than you in this stuff, but if I can maybe I can offer some help. I would ask a question of your customer:

Are you going to subject the blades to a dishwasher? There is a large amount of heat on the dry cycle and epoxy doesn't seem to like heat. If you using pins, epoxy is the only thing holding it together.

I've done about 2+ dozen of the kitchen knive from Jantz and Texas Knife and they are great compared to any other knife I've used including ones that I used in restraunts. I've chopped large (20 lbs in 2" block in a cold room one day alone) amounts of chocolate with only light touchs to my steel.

Some of the more skilled people will hop in here about ivory micarta, it seems to stain or maybe get particales imbedded in it that are hard to clean out. Don recommended to me and another person who were talking about dymondwood on kitchen knives, to use stabalized woods for the handles. I been looking at WSSI for some of the handle of my personal kitchen blades. The more I work on blades, the more I understand Don knows style, and doesn't lead people wrong in his recommondations.

What style is she looking at? I like the traditional set. The handles very comforable in my hand. I will recommend the Green River bread knife as the best and sharpest (as 3 scars and a few dozen gouges out of my hardwood bread board show) bread knives and the alaskian fillet knife. I know it looks big. but when carving a roast it will cut paper thin slices.

I hope I haven't overstepped my bounds here since I still very new at this but as much as I enjoy making knives cooking is still one of my biggest passions and the correct tools make the job easier and more enjoyable.

Drac

Drac-
Thanks indeed for your input.
I took the dishwasher issue into consideration. Fortunately, my neighbor would no more put one of my knives in the dishwasher than she would a Henckels, Wusthof, or Chef's Choice (I own a sizeable assortment of those myself...over 50 various, high-end kitchen knives on 6 magnetic bars, and I don't even cook all that much...just a knife guy doing his thing). Anyway, when she asked for something fancy, I knew she wasn't talking about everyday knives.

Regarding the Micarta: Knowing her taste, I'm going with the "Prestige Series" from Jantz. They've got a European designer feel that I know she'll go for. I'm cherry-picking a few to start but Jantz offers the complete set with a choice of Cocobolo Dymondwood or White Micarta. I was already thinking of the white Micarta-seeing that just confirmed it for me.

My neighbor offered me this commission after seeing my latest folder with the Tiger Coral and various embellishments (see KnifeKits forum under "my most ambitious to date"). So there's little doubt she wants something jazzy. I'll instruct her, just in case, about not using the dishwasher.

Thanks again for the response. Still looking for some input on those pins. It's one thing to keep the knife out of the dishwasher, but how do those mosaic pins hold up to a lot of water? That's why I was thinking stainless and brass...

Dennis

Not a knifemaker :) but I do own a Trace Rinaldi TTKK, bg42 with black micarta & mosaic pins. This is the knife I take with me when I go racing. It's been dropped hundreds of times, into oil buckets on occasion, been used to cut plastic oil cans and metal juice cans, been wiped down with wd40, and brake clean and the mosiac pins have held up fine. Never put in a dishwasher though.

Dennis, you should have no problem with mosaic pins on kitchen knives.I have made my wife knives with mosaic pins and they are used daily with no ill effects.Good luck and have fun.Dave

By far the dishwasher will do a number on a nice knife. The pins should do just fine. Another killer on kitchen knives is the junk drawer, if nothing else it will remove an edge pretty quick. You might as well sell her a block or something else to store the knives in........Ray

Several years ago, I bought these neighbors a set of top-of-the-line Henckels steak knives (at nearly $200 for a set of 4 they'd better be good) for their 10th anniversary. The wife has often told me how much they were appreciated.

Soon after they received the gift, I noticed that they had installed magnetic strips similar to the ones I use. Although this isn't as optimal as a block, the strips encourage frequent use. I warned them to just be careful when putting the knives back in place so as not to scratch. They've been real good about this (If nothing else they respect the fact that these are expensive knives).

I'm confident my knives will be in a safe home.

Thanks,
Dennis

PS. I've ordered all my materials from Jantz and Texas Knife. Hopefully everyone being away at the show won't slow down the rate at which my orders are being filled.

Congrats on the order.

I personaly like ivory mycarta, but have gotten a couple of bad batches from Texas.(was poris and traped dirt) Never had a problem with Shefields though. Never had any of Janzt's, don't know how good there's is. One thing about it though, any little scratch or ding will collect grime and stand out like a sore thumb. Shouldn't be a problem in a well maintained kitchen. Just while sanding down take it to a wet 600 grit and buff with a clean, and I mean clean buff with white compound. If you have the good ivory mycarta you should be able to just wipe clean. If there is any residual specks use some Topals smoker's toothpast and it should clean up.

I would sugest on the mosaic pin to cut a couple of notches below what will be the handle surface in the pin and in the pin hole that will help the epoxy make a mecanicle bond. For pins I like to eigther pien pins or use loveless bolts for security. I'm some what parnoid about handles comeing off.

Hope this helps

I cringe every time I here about someone using one of those magnetic strips to hold there high dollar, highly honed, prized knives. I was at my favorite knive shop as a kid and was looking over their display when the manager asked his employee to clean a butchers knife. The employee did not notice that the fillet knife next to it was overlapping the butchers knife and... you guessed it, when he grabbed it the fillet knife fell.

It was like everything went into slow motion. You could see the indecision as he went to grab for it, thought better of it, and then went ahead and grabbed for it. Well the manager was there watching to and he was there with a towel before the blade hit the floor. They where able to re-attach the fingers and he was fortunate enough to get his range of motion back.

I love the way knives look when they are displayed like this but just be sure that you really look at these knives before you grab them.

again just my 2 cents worth.

Mike

While the original question had to do with pins and handle material. One thing you could do to dress-up a blade for kitchen use is file work. File work is a very durable form of decoration, that will reward the eye, while the knife is in use.


Scott B. Jaqua
(some times knife maker and some times cook, too!)

The knife as you describe with Ivory Micarta and mosiac pins will be great for kitchen knives. The dishwasher does not get hot enough to damage the epoxy as long as you let it set up for a few days before putting it in the dishwasher. My guess is that this will not be an issue.

You may want to think about the mosiac pins as another way of dressing the knives up. If you buy mosiac pins, they usually come with black epoxy as the filler for the design. If you make them, you can color the epoxy the neighbor's favorite color or the color of the paint in the kitchen and it will be more personalized. Red pins look great in white micarta. You may also consider adding fiber between the micarta and the tang (Matching the pin color) as this dresses things up a bit as well.

You already know how to do filework but keep it simple on knives like this so you can match them all up.

Remember also that when you put the pins in, turn them the same direction so they don't look like you didn't think about what you were doing. I suggest grinding a slight bevel on one end to facilitate sliding them into the hole and a small screwdriver slot on the other ent so you can turn it if it gets out of alignment during installation. Get them right, let them set for 24 hours and then finish shaping. Avoid a lot of heat (if you have a grinder) and go to the fines grit you can. I usually take micarta to 1000 or 1200 grit and then lightly polish with white on a soft wheel, avoidning a lot of pressure and heat.

Remember, when you are sanding the mincarta it may sand faster than the pins and you will have a raised pin. Keep checking the pins to be sure they are coming down at the same rate as the micarta.

Let us know if you need any help.

Hey guys-

Great info. Thanks. I was already thinking of red liners, unfortunately that's the stuff that arrived cracked in my recent shipment from TKS. Don't know if I want to wait for replacement...may have to go with black spacer I have on hand.

I was just today thinking about filework. Like the idea. It also occured to me that I need to keep it simple so that food scraps won't get caught in the pattern.

I don't want to take on too many new skill sets at one time, so
Instead of my having to ramp up about bolsters on a fixed blade in time for this project (soldering, etc), I thought I'd do something interesting with the front edge of the scales...something like a gentle "S" curve with top portion extended out a bit on the spine. Will help produce a custom feel, and functional, allowing a wider space than just the spine to place finger on for aggresive cutting.

I saw a making mosaic pin tutorial in my just received Knife & Gun Catalog (seems like a decent catalog). Looks pretty simple. But just spent a bundle on the Mosaic Pin material by Barry Posner (also from TKS). I'll try making my own next time.
The stainless cutlery blades I chose from Jantz come with smaller pin holes. I was planning on drilling 1/4" holes to accomodate the Mosaic Pins...I wanted larger size to add a little drama. I've got a stack of both cobalt and titanium bits...best I could find locally.
I recently drilled screw holes into 440-C for a stainless backspacer, without incident. Any helpful suggestions before I start to drill into the stainless 440-C?

Thanks,
Dennis

About file work on a kitchen knife. Don't make the filework to complicated or to deep, it becomes a trap for food particles. This is not a problem on a carving knife, cause they are not used that often, but on a chef''s 10", 8" or 6" I would think about it.

Dennis,

I have a fillet knife by George Englebretson and it has a tapered tang and file work. The file work is completely filled with epoxy the same color as the liner (red in this case). It looks fantastic and nothing can gather in the file work.

Just a thought. I'll try to get a pic and post it as soon as I can.

Bob Sigmon

I went to my very first knife club meeting tonight - The Chesapeake Bay Knife Club, one of two clubs here in Maryland (The other is the Appalachian Knife Club...the 1st is for makers and collectors the 2nd for makers only...tonight I joined both...one of the CBKC members is President of the AKC).

Anyway, by coincidence they were passing around the newest "club knife" at the meeting, made by one of the members. A gorgeous neck knife...wood handle, clip point with full tang, and absolutely wonderful filework with the sides filled in with black epoxy...never seen anything like it in person before...took my breath away. Ran from mid-spine all the way back and then under the butt. Meticulous in every detail.

Certainly something for me to consider especially having seen it in person.

NOW, REGARDING MY QUESTION ABOUT DRILLING THE HOLES IN THE 440C STAINLESS PRE-MADE CUTLERY BLADE: It's been pointed out to me that it's one thing to drill holes into 440C annealed (as I described previously in this thread) and quite another if it's been tempered. Jantz' catalog describes these blades as "properly heat treated". I don't know what I should expect from this. Each blade comes with 3 holes: 1st is 5/32" round, 2nd is 1/4" round, 3rd is sort of oblong nearly 1/4". Without knowing any better, I purchased these blades with the intention of drilling my own 1/4" holes so that I can use the 1/4" mosaic pin material I bought from TKS. I wanted the larger, 1/4" size for effect. Do you think I'll have any chance of drilling these holes with the described bits. Any pointers that might help before I take a crack at one of the blades?

Thanks,

Dennis

Dennis, the holes can be drilled, but only with carbide bits. You can order them from MSC, Enco, Production Tool, or Wholesale Tool, or you might find them in a local industrial supply house.

Carbide is pricy and brittle, but it will last a good long time with proper care.

Properly heat treated blades from Jantz are most likely completely heat treated and tempered to 58 or 59 Rockwell over the entire length of the knife. No soft drawbacks or any other softening. Therefore the entire piece of steel is hard. If you use a carbide drill bit and KEEP IT COOL and RUN IT SLOW, you should be able to drill the holes you want. Don't allow yourself to get in a hurry and put a lot of pressure on the drill bit because it will heat up.

Enlarging the 5/32 to 1/4" may be fairly easy but rounding out the oblong hole may not be favorable to your drill bit and I would recommend using your dremel with a carbide grinder. If you attach the scale to one side of the knife and let it set, then drill through the tang and micarta on the other side (Use the tang for a template) you can use the two good holes and then just make the last hole where you want it within the oblong shape. Attach the scale to the other side and let set. Drill through the first side scales and tang through the new side and all of your holes will match up even though you have an odd shaped hole in one place (in the tang only). Just fill the oblong hole with plenty of epoxy when attaching the second scale.

Looks like I'll have to get the carbide bits and just take it slow and easy, keeping it nice and cool.

My original intention was to work with the current 1/4" hole which is located in the center of the tang. Then I was going to simply drill the other two new holes on either side, well spaced accordingly...simply ignoring the two "odd" holes. Figured they're going to be covered anyway by the micarta. Any fault in my logic here?

(I've become pretty proficient with my Dremel as many of you know, but I'm not so sure I want to attempt grinding out the 5/32" hole hoping to get accurate to 1/4". Either way I'm in for some work...so might as well at least be accurate with the carbide bits and a freshly drilled hole.)

Den-

Dennis,

New holes where you want them is perfect. The epoxy will fill the old holes.

Bob Sigmon

Ok. A local industrial supply just a few minutes away, has carbide bits in all sizes. The 1/4" runs about the same price as all the online outfits. My question is can I stay with the 1/4", which is the pin size, or do I go slightly larger...say 17/64 (which is FAR more expensive, it being an odd size...try $33!!!)? Seems to me I've seen both schools of thought as to whether or not go slightly larger to help ease the pin going in

Dennis.

I use 1/4" without problems. If the pin is a little too tight, just lightly sand it with fine sandpaper and it will fit. Get it all slicked up with eopxy and it will slide right in.

A little sandpaper on the pins is a lot cheaper than an odd sized carbide drill bit - in absence of a lathe, chuck the pin into your drill press and hold the sandpaper against it until you have the clearances needed.
If I have the sizes on hand, I drill the holes 1/1,000 larger than the pin - I think 17/64 would be very much oversize.
If you stick with the 1/4" drill bit, don't try to force the pin through the scales if its too tight. If sized correctly you should be able to push it into place with finger pressure or very light tapping.

Kelly-
Pardon my ignorance, but there really is such a thing as a drill bit 1/1000" larger than a 1/4" bit?

The sandpaper w/pin in the drill press sounds just fine if required.

Hey, my neighbor (you know the one who builds the to-scale working model planes, oh yeah and also ex-Navy Seal and Commander, and later, ex-Navy Lawyer) as always, offered some interesting food-for-thought: "From what you tell me, if this customer winds up taking a full set of these kitchen knives, let's say 10 of them including steak knives, you're going to be drilling somewhere around 30 holes with that carbide bit you're about to buy. You might even want to consider a diamond tip bit. May cost you around $40 but it'll last virtually forever."
This just keeps getting better...

One of these days I'll actually be able to get started on these knives, and with this (2 page!) buildup I just better do one hell of a good job!

Dennis

We will want pictures for sure. We will scrutinize them as if you have made a thousand already. We will look at every piece individually. Then................................We will tell you how well you did.

You know you will do fine, just go slow and get them right. NOT hurrying is hard to learn.

Don't finish one and show the customer, the impression factor is much highter with the entire order presented at once. It is difficult not to jump up and show the "In Progress" work but a perfectly ground blade without a handle just does not impress those that are not making knives. Since it does not look like they imagined (Yet), they start to wonder if they should have made the commitment. Hit them all at once with a good finished product and they will be very happy.

Dennis, the proper drill bit for a 1/4" pin is a letter "F" bit. It allows just enough clearance.

Can't offer an opinion on diamond bits- I have neither used them myself, nor known anyone else who has.

Excellent point, Bob, about not showing anything until it's finished - in my case, that also applies to critical family members who aren't involved in the process.
Dennis - drill bits are available in an amazing assortment of sizes - fractional , decimal , letter numbered scales, etc. Additionally, particularly with lower cost products, some variation occurs from their nominal size, and a digital vernier
caliper is very helpful to find exactly what is needed - particularly after you accumulate a few decades of tools and supplies.
Also, I've got an assortment of various brass and stainless tubes, and have found that their nominal measurement frequently isn't exactly as stated. My 1/4" tubes on hand today vary from .240 to .255.

Kelly-
I screwed up when I first started out making these knives. I bought a digital caliper from Woodcraft. It works well enough, but I suppose for woodworking, those guys don't require the same degree of accuracy...it only goes out to the hundreds column (I.E. .13 or .15).
Too good to be true for only $25.
I keep forgetting to take it along when I go over there. They give you up to a year to return stuff if you're not happy.
Den-