Ok,

Lets say a world famous knife magazine editor contacts you and asks you to write some profiles on "hot" knife makers.

Who would you write about and what would you say? This is not a thread about your "Favorite" makers.

They have to be "hot"...Right Now or will be "Hot" within the next 6 months.

So who you got?

Bruce Bump, Kevin Cashen and Don Hanson

Hi Robert,

You missed this part of the Post:

Who would you write about and what would you say? This is not a thread about your "Favorite" makers.

So, what makes Bruce, Kevin and Don "Hot" makers.

Kirby LAMBERT. He's a young guy, which is nice to see young blood in the knife making world, and is kicking out some killer tactical folders. The designs are very well thought out and they just feel nice in the hand. He makes knives full time and appears at various shows in the US and Canada. His Inferno model is a nice design that is comfortable in many grips. He also makes fixed blades as well, and does a mean handle wrap. He uses real good materials, stainless damascuss, 6al4v, CF, etc, and each of his thumbstuds hav a gem stone set in it, which he does him self. He turns his Ti backspacers and studs on his lathe in his shop. I have noticed that he has been getting a lot of notice from the internet knife community.

There is also Jeremy KRAMMES. He is coming out with some stunning folders, and his Peregrine model is nice and slim with a sexy recurve on it. He makes knives part time and is currently developing new models, which is something every knife maker that wats to be 'hot' should be doing. I think that he's gonna get bigger as the year goes on, but his knives are still reasonably priced at around $350, I believe, but could be wrong.

Just some thoughts.

Trenton

Hi Trenton,

Kirby would be one to consider, he seems to be getting a fair amount of interest.

Jeremy is another one. I started looking at his work 8 months ago. His work is excellent for the money.

Les
Another person for you to concider would be Don Cowles.He practically invented the market for fived blade gents knives. Has incredible fit anf finish. His designs are truly breathtaking and he is getting a lot of notice both in Dr Darom's book,and Blade Annual 2006. He is also one of the true gentlemen in the business.
Thanks
Steve

In the world of forged knives, Burt Foster has been attracting some attention lately. He won the last ABS cutting comp at the Moran hammer-in and has been turning out some really distinctive knives. He's covering a lot of ground too, finding success with forged integrals, "blue collar" hunters, high-end dressed up bowies, stainless/carbon san-mai hunters, and even kitchen knives. It seems like all his customers are thrilled with his work and he has a magnetic personality as well - which suggests that his appeal will only grow.

Hi Wulf,

First, it is nice to hear from a collector, I think everyone else who posted is a maker.

Second, I don't want this to turn into a favorite maker thread.

Hot makers are hot now....they may not be hot in 6 months. Conversely, a maker may not be hot now and be hot 6 months from now.

Burt makes some great knives, So do Harvey Dean, Joe Flournoy, Bert Gaston, Jim Crowell, Jimmy Walker, Dickie Robinson as do most of the ABS Master Smiths.

Winning the cutting competition at Moran's is great, however I don't think Burt qualified for the World Cutting Competiton. If you want to say a maker is hot with regards to cutting competitons than they need to qualify for the World Championships at the Blade Show. I think last year it was Reggier Barker (Winner), Adam DesRosiers and Dan Farr (I think there is someone I am forgetting). All of these makers had to win or quality at several hammer-ins to qualify.

I like Burt as well, a very smart business mind.

The hottest maker in the ABS is Jerry Fisk.

After that there are about 6 JS and Apprentice makers who are very hot.

Keep em coming guys. I am glad to see that people aren't point out the painfully obvious makers....thank you.

Hope it's alright for me to chime in here again, and I hope he's not to painfully obvious...

Lee LILLIAMS. His rhino flipper is a very good design that has garnered a lot of attention, both from users, collectors and makers. I think he's hot right now. His knives sell fast on the internet market for pre-owned knives, as well as getting new ones. He has some real nice design work, his names are interesting (Crux) and the embelishments are eye catching (one looked like water splashing on the handle).

These guys aren't my favorite makers, but they do work that I enjoy. I think my most favorite maker right now would have to be Brian LYTTLE.
Trenton

Hi Trenton,

His name is Lee Williams (maybe just a typo). Lee has a problem that many new makers do. He just doesn't make enough knives. I talked to him last summer and he said he was taking 6 months off to move to a new job.

Many of the makers out there who are considered "hot" produce so few knives that there are just a handfull of people who have seen their work.

So the knives either bring a high premium in the aftermarket and/or become impossible to get. This is when the collectors move on. I don't even know if Lee is making knives right now. Tough to be a "Hot" maker if your not producing knives.

I agree with you though, he could get very hot, I like the look of his new folders very much.

Les
Is it possible to be a "HOT" maker if you are not putting out folders? Seems to me the market for just fixed blades isn't big enough or wide enough to allow for the market appeal to make a maker really hot.
What do you think?
Steve

Darrel Ralph has a new line and never leaves a show with knives on his table. Yup, he's a buddy, but he is hot as a pistol, too.

Nick Wheeler will sell anything that he can produce, but his output is limited also. Great F&F and personality that people enjoy dealing with. Hot in my book.

Ron Newton can do it all. Seems to sell out everywhere and has quite a following and respect among the top names.

Todd Begg has a following and a standalone look. Anyone who made the Tactical Invitational is a good benchmark.

Anything handmade by Mick Strider can't get much hotter. Fairly obvious, though.

Kevin Wilkins is making headway. Maybe not right now, but soon enough. His location (Germany) may prohibit that.

Lee Williams would have also been on my list, but he's covered above.

Shoot holes in my list, now.... ;)

Cop

Thanks Les, it was just a typo. From a relative newby maker those posted above offer great benchmarks to strive for. ut also being a newby, I can inderstand the not making many knives thing. I just don't have the time. I'm backed up on orders for at least 6 months. If I did it full time that would probably be down to less than 2 months, but I'm not. I have a full time career, and a wife that insists on some attention every once in a while. What would you suggest I do to help get more product out there. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm curious. I want to make more, but I just don't know how.

Are you going to have a table in Vegas? Look forward to meeting you there.

Trenton

Hi Stephen,

Oddly enough many makers have become hot because they produce so few knives.

I was interviewed for an article in Knives Illustrated earlier this month. The article discussed how knife makers can use the Internet to improve their business. The majority of makers do not take advantage of the Internet. Those that are helped the most received this by collectors who sing their praises on the Interent Forums.

Many of these individuals cannot afford the very knife they covet. However, they praise any and all who acquire a knife from the maker. The majority of these individuals have never seen or held a knife by this maker in person. They praise the maker and those who get their knives in order to be part of the "Fun" or "club". An odd item is that some of these people do finally buy a knife (using a credit card). They get the praise and can feel the love. Then 3 weeks later you see the knife for sale on the same forum...the credit card bill is due.

Case in point (not picking on Coop but he brought the makers name up in this thread) Nick Wheeler. I agree with Coop that his knives are very nice. In 2005 he made a total of 8 knives. So how many people actually received a knife from Nick in 2005? Well only 8 at the most. How many people who actually received a knife could have posted on the Internet? Again, only 8 at the most. Go to Bladeforums and do a search for the name Nick Wheeler. You will see hundreds of posts singing Nicks praises. In actuality how many of these people could have actually seen or held the knives in person.

There a hundreds of people on the Internet who sing the praises, mostly because they like hearing (reading in this case) their voice.

As for fixed blades being hot, currently there is more demand for "hot" fixed blade makers than folder makers. The Internet has a limited knowledge base and as such many of the praise singers just don't know who the makers are.

Oddly enough many makers have become hot because they produce so few knives... [snip] ...So the knives either bring a high premium in the aftermarket and/or become impossible to get. This is when the collectors move on.

I'm not trying to be difficult, Les, but I'm curious to know if being "hot," is a good thing for a maker in the long run. It seems like it would be better to err on the side of not producing enough and maintaining demand than to produce a lot and flood the very tiny knife market. If a maker's knives are commanding a very high premium in the aftermarket, then obviously the maker is getting a high premium... shouldn't makers be invested in getting the most income for their labor?


Many of these individuals cannot afford the very knife they covet. However, they praise any and all who acquire a knife from the maker. The majority of these individuals have never seen or held a knife by this maker in person. They praise the maker and those who get their knives in order to be part of the "Fun" or "club". An odd item is that some of these people do finally buy a knife (using a credit card). They get the praise and can feel the love. Then 3 weeks later you see the knife for sale on the same forum...the credit card bill is due.

Isn't that the very model of the "aftermarket"? Those that can't afford to keep their collections instead buy, enjoy, sell & move on?

Hi John,

You are not being difficult, you have an excellent point. Having been a full time custom knife maker you know that like it or not the business end of making knives eventually rears its "ugly" head.

Once you move from hobby maker to becoming more serious the expenses start to accrue. Machines, tools, belts, etc. It is at this point that your knives will have to start turning a profit.

Should a maker make as much money as they possibly can for each knife they make. The simple answer is yes. Just as the simple answer to the question what is any knife worth is: What somene will pay for it.

So how do you get to the point where your knives demand a premium? For 99% of the knife makers out there it is years of hard work. Usually a fair amount of advertising (choose your medium), attending shows, working with dealers, utilitzing the Internet. The maker can use one, all, any combination of the 4 or none of the 4.

Additionally, the knife maker needs to be innovative, this catches the attention of collectors, magazines and dealers. Your knives have to be competitively priced for the market you enter. This price will depend in great part to your position in that market. The higher up you are the more money your knives will command. If you are competiting in a market with a very small following you can choose two paths.

1) You choose to become the premier maker in that market. You will spend a lot of money in advertising. You will have to become the authority, the SME (Subject Matter Expert). You will have to train and/or encourage others to particpate in your market. After all if you are the only one in the market then you are both the best and the worst maker. An example of this is Ed Fowler. Ed put in a decade to promote a particular steel. Now that Ed has reached the top in this market his prices have become such that those he trained are now reaping the rewards. Bill Burke for instance was trained by Ed. For many Ed's prices have become to expensive so they choose to have Bill build them a knife for a lot less money. This of course has helped Bill's popluarity and may have hurt Ed's sales somewhat. However, ultimately some buying Bill's knives will opt for one from the "teacher" and Ed will pick up some additional sales.

2) Like Bill Burke you find a mentor and walk down the path the Mentor has created. You will get less money for your knives, however you will have less invested. However, eventually if you want to have your prices go up, you will have to break away from the mentor and start your own path.

Those makers who are "hot" but build very few knives, eventually cool off and some fade away. They join the "Best Knife Makers You Never Heard Of" club.

As you point out collectors (about 90%) buy, sell/trade and move on. Which like it or not is the pattern of even very wealthy collectors. The main reasons are 1) to raise money fo r the next knife, 2) their custom knife education level has grown and 3) they are more selective in what they want in their collectionl. So they will selland/or trade mulitple knives to get one.

Most collectors (espeicailly the experienced ones) will only chase a makers work so far. Then they lose interest and move on to the next person. At that point demand for the "hot" makers work cools, premiums paid become less and ultimately there are those who will lose money on the "hot" makers work. Once this happens that knife style and perhaps that maker are dead in the water.

Example. I was asked by maker some years back about his entering a very mature market. I explained to him that there were 3 main makers and because the style had been around for so long it would be difficult to enter that market with any degree of success. He told me I was full of it and he would prove me wrong. He designed a knife with a price point of less than $200 and received over 70 orders in a short period of time.
Of course he had to fill these orders first and could not introduce anything new. He of course let me know he had all these orders and so much for my "expertise".

As time went on he filled the orders but an interesting thing happened. Those who had received their knives early decided to move on to the next knife and sold this makers work (for a loss) to generate funds for the next knife. While the knives were "used" they certainly were not abused. So those who were sitting at #75 with another 8 months to wait decided to buy that knife and save some money. This pattern repeated itself several times. As well some paying attention to this decided there was no reason to buy knives that were not going to hold there value. Orders started to be cancelled and new orders were not forthcoming. This makers foray into this market did not turn out well. While his knives had a great price point but they lacked innovation. His delivery times were so strung out he could not keep the good "buzz" going on the Internet. Ultimately he was not able to compete with those 3 makers. I belive he is still around, however you seldom if ever hear from him or see his work. It was a costly lesson because he failed to utilize a sound business plan.

Had he done so he would have understood that it would have been better to do limited runs of say 20 knives. He would have finished the knives much earlier, there by eliminating #75 from buying #2's knife when he was done with it. #2 knife would have probably sold for retail or slightly above since there were so few made. Next the maker would have been able to introduce 3 knives in the same time frame instead of one. He would have found some people wanted all 3 (with the same serial number). Some would have bought mulitples in anticipation of the knives bringing a premium, etc. However, Im sure it was much more cost effective to make 75 of the same pattern, espcially if you are using lazer, water jet and/or CNC technology. When this question presents itself you have to be able to do break even scenarios' to help decide which is the best way to go.

Few if any makers ever sit down and do a comprehensive business plan.

Back to a "Few Knives". What happens to most "hot" makers is that they suffer the Sophmore Jinx. Their first knife takes off. Lots of press, lots of orders and lots of "love" from the Internet crowd. However, most are unable to captilize on this for numerous reasons and the heat dissapates.

I had a chat with a maker who was annoyed because he wasn't getting his "due" on some of the forums. Note, this maker is very competitive in several different markets, sells everything he can make (usually pre-sold), has an 18 month wait and is a full time knife maker.

Now that ladies and gentlemen that is a professional knife maker. He has had is "hot" moments. But ultimately he understands that the heat dissapates and that only through developing a plan can he maintain his position.

To sum up:

Yes, makes should get the most money they can for their labor. However, many fail to realize that the marketplace does not value their labor as much as they do.

Makers who are hot have to meet the deamand with supply as best they can. There are ways to balance the two to keep interest in your knives piqued. Doing this keeps demand high in the secondary market which leads to even greater demand in the primary market. This in turn raises prices in both.

Those makers who want to work in a very small or niche market have to understand that monetary success will require a great investment of time and captial in the beginning. Look forward to little or no salary for 2-3 years and 60-80 hour weeks.

Lastly remember that most "artists" make very little money. Primarily because they do not incorporate a business plan into their artistry.

Les, You mentioned the idea of studying under a mentor then breaking away. I couldnt agree more. To stay away from mentioning any names but I have looked at a certain makers work that just blows me away with his abilities and expertise but would be much more impressed if it didnt looks so IDENTICAL to his Mentors work. Its almost like a maker has the ability to create works of Art but doesnt have the ability to come up with styles of his own. If im going to buy a knife I probably would just spend my money on the Mentors work even though it might cost me a little more. Style and Ideas and the ability to come up with new things that catch a buyers eyes are a big role in what makes a Maker HOT. Just taking another maker and trying to duplicate his work to a T holds the maker back from acheiving that HOT status. I might be just blowing smoke since this maker probably does sell everything he makes and cant make them fast enough but thats just my thoughts.

Shane

Hi John,


As a side note... I've changed my first name to "Jól," pronounced "Yule."

Long story. ;)


Yes, makes should get the most money they can for their labor. However, many fail to realize that the marketplace does not value their labor as much as they do.


You have neatly described why I no longer make knives for primary income.

dammit Les, everytime you ask a question it's the same thing - you already know the answer (or think you know the answer) and when others respond you proceed to educate them. No fun! I don't want to learn stuff - I just want to be right!

:p

Kidding aside, if I'm reading your parameters correctly, then you're looking for input on makers who have established broad and lasting appeal in the custom knife market, whose knives command a premium and will continue to do so. If that's the case, then the list of "hot" makers will be populated by the likes of Fisk, Fowler, SR Johnson, Kressler, etc... in the world of folders one might include the likes of Lake, Ruple, Boguszewski, Ralph, Horn, Onion, and others... but if you're talking about makers who are arguably still on an upward trajectory, then "hot" will be a bit more of a subjective or speculative description. Take John Young, for example. His knives are currently very highly sought after and many folks have called him the heir apparent to the S.R. Johnson throne. But it's impossible to know with any degree of certainty where he will be in the custom knife world in 5 years or even 6 months. At one point in time Steve Filicietti was pretty hot. So was Keith Kilby.

I mentioned Burt earlier because I see him on an upward trajectory, and yeah, he's one of my favorites too. What can I say, I like the guy. A full time Mastersmith, talented, diverse, innovative, and a nice guy. Broad appeal too, but not nearly "hot" in the sense of a Fisk.

Then again, you did allude to some apprentice and journeyman smiths that you thought might be "hot." I'm guessing you'd probably mention Gatlin - who has benefitted from solid promotion by Fisk, youself, and others as well. But again, this is a bit subjective and somewhat speculative. And if Gatlin is hot, then maybe we should also be talking about Farr (limited production), DesRosiers (relative newcomer), Tom Krein, and surely many others...

Who knows... I will say this, though, as a collector who takes particular pleasure in pursuing the work of newer or less well known makers, it's a question I think about quite a bit. And there's never a shortage of surprises

Hi John,

If you are going to operate in a niche market it is essential that you put forth the effort to educate your potential clients. Doing this makes them understand why you should get the prices you are asking. No maker comes on to the scene commanding top dollar.

These are some of the questions I ask makers when they come to me for advise about increasing their prices.

How many articles did you write for the knife magazines?

Did you write a book that would help educate potential buyers.

Did you conduct any seminars educating collectors?

How many shows across the country did you set up at?

How many magazines and how often did you advertise your knives in?

Did you list your web site in Blade and Knives Illustrated?

Did you create a business plan and marketing plan? This would have forced you to identify the market you want to compete in. Shown you your position in that market. Then would have shown you how to optimize your time and money to get the best bang for your advertising dollar.

Inability to raise capital is the number 1 reason that business fail. The number 1 reason that a business cannot raise capital is that either does not have a viable business plan or it has no business plan.

Not having a business plan is like trying to find your way to an unknow location without a map.

Here is an example for you. When I revised my business plan last summer I wanted to increase my "exposure" to wider audience. I determined one avenue of approach would be to start writing for the magazines. I have recently had published two articles in Blade and I am schedulded as of Jan 06 to write 4 more maker profiles. Additionally I was contacted by Knives Illustrated to write what in essence will be 6 articles for them (although this will probably spread out into early 2007). These articles came about as a result of analysis done while updating my business plan. Additionally I have been interviewed for two other articles so far and have a guarantee of one article on my Vanguard knives.

Generally it takes about 10 years to become an "overnight" sensation in custom knives. Note this is not meerly making knives this is advertising yourself and educating your customer base.

No knife maker enjoys the business side as much as making knives. Sure it isn't as fun as making knives. But it sure can make your business more profitable.

Remember: People don't plan to fail...they fail to plan.

Les, would you run through my list and tell me where I am wrong or right?

As the thread evolves the interpretation for 'hot' is subjective. Hot sellers? Hot interest? Hot variety? One of each, or all.

Great business advice. I sure can use all the help I can learn.

Coop

Hi Wulf,

The first thing they teach a good trial attorney is never ask a question you don't know the answer to.

No I am not implying that I am a lawyer. What I am is a custom knife professional who's job it is to know who is hot, who is not and why.

As you and Coop have both pointed out "hot" can be very subjective. Quite frankly it really depends on who you ask.

Does a magazine article or even a cover make you hot? IF so for how long?

Does selling out at a show make you hot?

Does being talked about on the Internet make you hot?

Does your knives bringing a premium in the aftermarket make you hot?

What other factors could make you hot?

How about a two year wait?

How about only selling your knives via lottery?

How about because I say so. :D

Wulf you listed some excellent makers. You obviously have expanded your knowledge of custom knife makers well beyond the Internet Fourms.

Hi J?l,

Did you create a business plan and marketing plan? This would have forced you to identify the market you want to compete in. Shown you your position in that market. Then would have shown you how to optimize your time and money to get the best bang for your advertising dollar.

They don't give you a Small Business Administration loan without one...


Most collectors (espeicailly the experienced ones) will only chase a makers work so far. Then they lose interest and move on to the next person. At that point demand for the "hot" makers work cools, premiums paid become less and ultimately there are those who will lose money on the "hot" makers work. Once this happens that knife style and perhaps that maker are dead in the water.

See, I'm still thinking that in the long run... it isn't always good to become "hot." All that trendy advertising & marketing stuff comes back to bite you when the trends shift.

Don't get hot. Stay cool! :smokin

Hi John,

Ok you had a business plan, that is the good news. The bad news is that you could make a living making custom knives. Obviously the business plan had some flaws or needed to be updated more often. I update my plan every 6 months.

You wrote: "See, I'm still thinking that in the long run... it isn't always good to become "hot." All that trendy advertising & marketing stuff comes back to bite you when the trends shift."

You could not be more wrong. Part of what takes a maker to become an overnight sensation in 10 years is "word of mouth". You have to have people talking about you. Magazines, collectors, dealers and even other makers. Getting "hot" brings you to the forefront of more buyers and soldifies the confidence shown by others on your way to becoming hot.

You are correct trends shift and as a professional knife maker you have to make adjustments to these shifts. You know 100 years ago there were hundreds of makers who produced "Buggy Whip". For the previous 100 years Im sure some of these companies had thriving business's. Then Henry Ford and the Model T came along and those companies either adapated and started building something for the horseless carriage or they went broke.

Same thing for Polaroid. Man when I was a kid it was the coolest camera going. Imagine taking a picture waiting 60 seconds and there it is! They saw their market share slipping away and instead of investing in digital technology they tried to compete with it. How did that work out for them.....NOT TO GOOD! They are now bankrupt. Remember for decades this was a Fortune 500 Company.

Kodak is going through the same thing right now, how much film do you think they are selling for those small cameras that people used to carry that had film in them. Film is one of this centuries "Buggy Whips".

An artist can choose to make what they want to make, make it how they want and make them whenever they want. The problem comes when you try to take it commercial. The artist is now a businessman. Now you have to make what the buyer wants. This is where spending years educating the buyers comes into play. You can continue to make what you want, but you have to edcuate the buyers. Failure to do so combined with failure to produce commercially viable knives lead to a failed business. This completes the circle as the artist returns to making what they want and how they want. They just do it as a hobby now. As they now have another full time job to support themselves.

Business for the most part follows one of the laws of nature....Adapt or Die.

Can a maker be "hot" without conforming to your exacting business model, or are you looking for "Hot" makers with an asterisk and a long list of requirements....seems like the question started so open ended, and seems to be ending with a very exacting set of requirements that you are looking for, with well-thought out justification as to why everything that opposes those requirements is wrong. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that from a business perpective of a knife seller, nor am I insulting or trying to derail what I have found to be a very interesting discussion, but I have quickly lost track of what you are trying to identify between your original post and now a subsequent list of clarifications....I guess defining "hot" is the hardest part...maybe "hot" should instead be "profitable", but does that mean sucess? O-town was once a "hot" boy band.....and at one time was profitable....but thinking like that constrasts starkly to the "10 years to become someone" theory on knives....so...what is "Hot" vs. "profitable" and at what point does hot and profitable become stagnant and something under glass at walmart? Surely gerber is hotter and more profitable than any custom maker if youre only looking at business. They have more people who know about their knives than any custom maler... But knives are a form of art and business, no matter what anyone says, and I think history has proven that profitability and sales have never and will never equate to artistry...does that mean that there are "hot" makers who are innovative and great, but may never become "hot" sellers? I would say so...So i guess defining who is hot or not really depends. Hot for a buyer is totally different than hot from a dealer's perspective. Makers might find some other makers hot, seeing innovative and new ideas, while that maker may not even be selling knives....every advance on every technology and art form has started as a "bad idea" or a "poor plan", and I think that needs to be remembered. A hot maker might not necessarily be the one who will be remembered....so i guess its really a question of interpretation.

Hi David,

Makers can be hot right now and be nobody two years from now.

I do not have preset criteria for who is hot today, right now, this minute.

What has happened is this has turned into more of a business discussion. Being hot and commercially viable can be inclusive or exclusive of each other.

You brought up Gerber as an example. Apparently you are not aware that Gerber on the brink of bankruptcy was bought by another company (pennies on the dollar). There is no one name Gerber working there any more. If the company was so profitable why did it have to be sold? The main reason, it that it did not adapt to the market conditions of the time.

What the majority of the factories have done are outsource design to custom knife makers. These makers spend years building up a name and/or a particular design and then sell it to the factory. So the factory pays the maker a minimal fee for the design and then pennies on the dollar for each knife sold. The factories sends the maker a 1099 for tax purposes. So the corporation does not pay any taxes on the maker, no Social Security, Medicare or health benefits. This has a very positive effect on the factories bottom line.

Last, when the knife is not longer meeting projected sales, the accounting department lets the CEO know and the knife is dropped from production. The left overs are greatly reduced in priced and are blown out.

They factories have to turn a profit because they have shareholders to answer to. They don't care about the artists or artistic wants and desires. Either they make a profit or the knife is dropped.

The knife is meerly a product that the factory produces. Could be a micro-chip, compressor, etc. Factory knives seldom if ever reach the "Hot" level. Mostly because if a knife gets hot they just make more until the demand is met. Obviously custom knife makers do not have this capability.


David as a maker and an artist you will always come at this from that perspective. Which is natural. As I wrote previously there is nothing wrong with being an artist. However, once you decide you want to sell your "art" then you have entered the commercial market. As such if you want continued success you will have to produce a profit. You are well aware of the costs associated with building a knife you need money to cover those costs. Then if you want to do it for a living you need to make even more profit. At that point you have to become aware of market trends and build what customers want, not always what you want.

David it is your business you should run it as you want. However, you might want to have a chat offline with John about being a knife maker full time.

Guys, this will be the last business post, lets get back to "hot" Makers.

Thanks Les, I appreciate your response and am glad my post wasn't read as any kind of personal attack or anything. I used gerber as the only example of a knife company I could think of. Pretty ironic that they are going out of business, heh!

So as to not inadvertantly derail, I will not continue dribbling my brain out here! I can certainly see what you mean about there being some kind of line that once crossed, the artistic world and business world MUST meet at some common point. A knifemaker cannot be purely an artist and cannot be purely a businessman. I would think that a "Hot" maker would be someone who has balanced those two facets correctly at any given point in time.

Can't wait to see some more names up here. As new maker, its a course study in what to do right!

Hi David,

Everyone runs their business as they see fit. Because it is "your" business. Everything good, bad or indifferent that happens is your resposbility.

Statiscially most business will fail within the first 5 years. These statistics are from the SBA. This is an organization that, as John pointed out, that does require at least an initial business plan. Even with that 75% of the business's they loan money to fail in the first 5 years. Imagine what the rate of failure is for those small business's that are going to try and make a go of it with limited or no business planning.

As you pointed out at some point on the graph the business and artist axis have to meet. Having done this for over 20 years know it has become fairly easy to determine which makers are going to be successful long term and which are not.

The makers I choose to work with have to have more than just talent. I have other criteria as well. Sometimes it takes ordering a knife or two to expose the flaws in their business skills. After that I just stop buying knives from them. Because it is a business for me tough decisions have to be made.

So make what you want to make, how you want to make and when you want to make it. The custom knife market is the most competitive that I have seen it in over 20 years. Just remember, if you don't want to pay attention to business 101 or give the "Buyers" what they want there are 100 more makers ready to step in and take your potential customers.

Hi J?l,

An artist can choose to make what they want to make, make it how they want and make them whenever they want. The problem comes when you try to take it commercial. The artist is now a businessman. Now you have to make what the buyer wants. This is where spending years educating the buyers comes into play. You can continue to make what you want, but you have to edcuate the buyers. Failure to do so combined with failure to produce commercially viable knives lead to a failed business. This completes the circle as the artist returns to making what they want and how they want. They just do it as a hobby now. As they now have another full time job to support themselves.

Business for the most part follows one of the laws of nature....Adapt or Die.

I just realized that I don't want to "...make what the buyer wants," when it comes to blades. A hobby? No, it's a calling. But I've got a degree in jewelry & metalsmithing, and a wide ranging skillset. The jewelry market is simply much more lucrative. My latest business plans included figuring out the profit / labor on blades vs. the same for jewelry, in addition to the relative breadth of the markets & the general demand. No question; unique, handmade blades don't even come close. It's too bad, really.

You *can* make a living with knives. Just not the way I envision it.

PS I only posted here as I noticed that you've started a new thread- I certainly won't post digressively there. And it's "J?l." ;)

I agree.

You can look at knifemaking from many different angles. Most makers who are full time and profitable I do not believe sat down and planned their career, they types of knives that were in demand, and then set out to master those types of knives. I would say that most custom makers who are profitable and full time progressed slowly, made a niche for themselves, and MADE their knives in demand based on their individual sytle. After all, style and art really are the only deciding factors in knife buying beyond physical materials choice. You can have the best business plan in the world, best materials, best teachers, best technique, best everything....but if you have crappy style, you will make crappy knives. That means, for me, that art and style come first before a business plan. If no one likes your style, dont bother constructing a plan.

Knifemaking is more like singing, IMHO....there are plenty of good singers....some make it big, fast and furious, and stay there....others are equally as good and go nowhere, and it has little to do with their business plan....now, once you begin selling records, the business really comes into play, but you need to put the cart behind the horse....and I think in knives, the horse driving anything is style, not one's skill in business. A maker with world-class style can learn business, but a businessman cannot learn inherent style...they can only copy.

Adapt or die? Depends what you are adapting to...a maker who ignores his own internal style and just copies what is "hot" in order to turn a profit doesnt really do much for our community....but can be understood if they need to feed the kids.

Just playing devil's advocate here....I think we may be blurring the lines between a business plan for a knife dealer and a business plan for a knife maker. Am I way off in thinking that most profitable makers did not plan to be full time makers until demand went up for their knives enough to warrant it? I'd like to know how many fail who make a plan first, then go fulltime, vs those who go fulltime as a result of overwhelming demand.....

Please......someone give Les his Ritalin.......:D

Al P.

I am a fulltime maker who is profitable. My profits are not huge and I dont believe I will get rich from bladesmithing, but I am rich in the fact I get up every morning looking forward to the day of bladesmithing. It is a calling and love that drives me and not money and I hope it is always that way. Bill Moran once told me, dont be a knifemaker if you want to be money rich. Defining rich? I am rich.

Hi Dan,

Is knife making your sole and only source of Income?

Is the profit from your knife making paying all your bills?

If not, could you make a living doing nothing but making knive?

Guys,

Makers always take this so personal and I don't know why?

Ok, your an artist. The steel "talks" to you. It is a calling. ETC. You don't want to write a plan of any type and fly by the seat of your pants, great.

If you are doing it, however you are doing it and it makes you happy then that is truly what matters.

I have written time and time again, it is your business and you are responsible for everything good, bad or indifferent. If you do violate the basic laws of business then you don't get to "Bitch" when:

You do not make enough money to cover expenses. If you're not....it's your fault.

You do not sell out at shows. If you're not...it's your fault.

You do not get articles or covers in and on magazines. If you are not...it's your fault.

You do not get paid what you think you are worth. If you are not...its your fault.

You see other makers (in your opinion) who do lesser work by get more press, make more sales and/or have more internet "Buzz".

I am not an artist, I do not view custom knives as a a "calling". I do have an exceptional passion for custom knives.

My business turns a profit, so much so that it has been my sole source of income for the last 11 years. My passion is my business and I know of few other people who can do wha t they love and have it pay the bills. Especailly when you throw in raising a couple of girls and all the funds that entails.

Guys make your statements and make your arguements then ask yourself could I have done something different and/or better.

I think this pretty much sums it up.

Enjoy.

I dont think makers are taking it personally. You are referring to a business selling other peoples' knives..which might indeed be all about cover articles and coverage and "hot"ness....you depend, in fact, on other peoples' "calling"....its wholly a different business, different attitude, IMHO....and maybe thats why you feel like makers take your business views personally. I am not saying makers dont need to be good buinessmen, but I think a bigger part of a makers success IS is calling, his style, and his drive...not his ability to make a good business plan. Anyone can make a plan....most business that have a plan fail anyways....maybe I am way off....

but I think a bigger part of a makers success IS is calling, his style, and his drive...not his ability to make a good business plan. Anyone can make a plan....most business that have a plan fail anyways....maybe I am way off....Most businesses DO fail. Having a plan would easily minimize the losses.

This really boils down to a definition of 'success'....

I agree that style is a most important ingredient. I also agree that the maker has to have drive. ALL successful artists AND businessmen have 'drive'.

I also submit that there are probably twenty 'driven', yet financially unsuccessful makers for every one who has both. Stay unsuccessful for long enough and your calling calls you away. Fact.

Jon was smart enough to recognize his jewelery pays the bills better, and changed his work habits accordingly. Had he stuck with his 'calling and passion' alone, he would NOT be so pleased to continue. I'd hate to lose him, and we haven't. :)

What Les is preaching to us--over and over and over--is that it's not enough to go with your calling in the long run to sustain you. I'm listening and nodding even when I don't completely understand what to do. I sure won't justify that my lack of formulating a rocksolid plan is going to keep me going. I know better.

What I HAVE done is signed-up for a 'Writing a Business Plan' course at my local high school under 'continuing education'. I'm worth the effort. :mod:

Coop

Les, Yes it is my sole way of making money. It is all the money I make and I am comfortable. I plan to go out for a nice meal with a girl tommorow night and I will buy as I am from the old school. Not to say your points are wrong, but some of us are not in it just for the money. I am of the believe, make a fine piece and it will sell. Quality sells itself. Granted, my work dosnt sell for as high at it should (or so I am told by othes). I am also VERY prolific. I make a lot of blades. Look at the dagger I posted a few days ago and I will post a Bowie I just completed today. I wont have a hard time selling either piece and I wont attend a show. You are very correct when you say "A niche has to be carved out" Again, I dont disagree with anything you have stated, its just there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Good points on all counts...everything must meet at a common point. As a part-timer, its a great topic to listen to talked about by the pros!

Hi Guys,

Ok let me clarify as I am obviously not getting through here.

It is your business, craft, hobby, calling, whatever. You are responsible for everything good bad or indifferent.

It is true that success can be measured in many different ways.

A business plan or marketing plan is not necessary.

The problem that I run into over and over again is makers bitching and complaining about "some other maker".

Why do they sell out, why do they get the attention, why do they get the money they do, how come the dealers want their knives and not mine, yada yada yada.

THe majority of these makers have no business plan. They don't know how to price their knives, they don't know what the market is doing, they don't know why their knives aren't selling. Correction I do know....it's the Economy stupid.

These makers are the same ones who blame slow show sales on the economy, the location, the time of year, their table location inside the room, the lighting, etc.

I had a maker tell me one time that he had slow sales at a show because in a square room his table was facing a wall (he was in the middle of the room). I felt obliged to point out that in a square room ......we all face a wall.

I then asked him how many invitations he sent out to let his clients know that the show was happening....that is the show promoters responsibility. Which magazine did you advertise in to let your clients know you were going to be at the show? Again that was the show promoters responsibility to run an ad with his name in it. Did you post photo's on your web site that showed what knives you are taking to the show? Im a knife maker not a photographer, besides I don't have a web site.

Ok, the next obvious question is what makes you think any one even knows who you are? The fact that you are an artist or have the "calling" means squat. What are you doing to introduce you and your work to the buying public.

In the "Business of Knifemaking" forum the question there is "how do I get my profile in a magazine" Ed Caffery have a very instructive post. To sum up...pay your dues.

Too many knife makers do not want to hear that they have to pay their dues....they want it now.

I once posted on this very forum that for $100 I would give you the answer as to how to get an article on a maker in a magazine. I guaranteed this or your money back. GUARANTEED OR YOUR MONEY BACK! GUARANTEED OR YOUR MONEY BACK.

Guess how many knife makers contacted me? 2 that is right 2.

How much is an article worth? I talked with Sam Butler this past weekend in Little Rock. He told me he took over 40 orders in 3 weeks from the article I wrote on him. This is an ABS apprentice smith who now has orders to fill for the next two years. This will easily take him into his Journeyman Smith rating. How much did this article cost Sam $0.00

How did Sam get a 5 page article in Blade Magazine? The same way that Adam DesRosier did. No, they didn't send me a check for $100.

If you want to know, send me a check for $100. :D

I understand that my job is different from that of the maker. My job is to be able to identify any makers position in any market and subsequently be able to price what the knife should sell for and make recommendations based primarily on value for the money.

As value for the money will almost always determine long term position in a market, desireablity in the aftermarket there by returning to pouplarity in the primary market.

While money may have little importance to the "artist" let me tell you it has a huge impact on the buyers.

We are going through a time right now where makers and dealers alike are starting to fall by the way side. Why? The market has become saturated with makers who spend little or no time edcuating potential buyers. Consequently, there are not enough buyers to support all the makers.

This in turn creates a very competitive market as supply is outpacing demand.

For every maker out there who does not want to deal with the business aspects of custom knives you are making it that much easier for those who do. They will get your customers.

Being popular is not always the key to success, having a vaild business plan is not always a key to success. Being innovative and going to great lengths to educated your customers and potential customers are not always keys to success. But having these sure can't hurt!

Enjoy being an artist, answer your calling, be frugal in your advertising and education. Just don't bitch when it doesn't work out.

Hi Dan,

Just out of curiosity what do you do for health care? Im always looking for alternate sources.

HI Coop,

As an artist don't you find it interesting regarding the "Artist" pecking order?

That is to say, how many knife makers won't have a picture taken by you because you are charging "too much"? :)

Forget the fact that you will take pictures they can put on a web site. These same pictures can be placed in ads. As well these pictures are also magazine ready should the maker be selected to be put in an article. The beneifts are numerous. How many times has a maker missed out on being in an article or did not have a featured photo because they didn't have a great professional photo of their work. Countless Im sure.

BTW, I have another article on some Vanguard knives coming out later this year so I will need some more pictures. Jim Cooper Offical Photographer of Vanguard Knives.

Also, since Im writing for Knives Illustrated as well now I will have makers sending knives your way for photographs....you know for their articles.

Ok, I'll stop that is enough smart ass for one day.

Les, as I stated before. I dont disagree with anything you have said. There are just more ways to skin a cat. As far as health care, price Blue Cross.

Hi Dan,

Thanks, Blue Cross is who I use.

Im glad the business is working out for you. There are very few of us who make a full time living at this.

I guess my sensitivity comes from those makers who feel they are owed something just because they make a knife. Every successful maker I know has busted his or her butt to get to where they are at. Nothing is guaranteed and nothing is given.

Thanks for the thorough and well-put response! I, too, am not saying you are wrong or that business is not a very important aspect of anything people do for a full-time living. What I have been tying to say is that for a maker, this isn’t an equal product-driven market where business makes all the difference and competition and sales-savvy determines everything. I guess I am just missing where talent comes into your equation, as a maker’s product is really his lifeblood. A full time maker with little style and a full business understanding seems far less likely to succeed than a talented maker who hasn’t gone to Wharton.

Now, for a dealer, this is different, from how I see it. A dealer, I would assume, must take into account a maker's business plan even more so than the makers. If a maker is unreliable or inconsistent or not profitable, a dealer is left with a bad apple and lost business and a customer base who does not have trust in the ability of the purveyor to choose who he represents carefully. I would guess this quickly translates into lost sales (but you would be the #1 expert on that side of things)

I am a part time maker. I have never had any problem selling anything I have offered to the market, but I do not make the mistake in assuming that means in any way that I could do it for a living because I work in business and know that selling at one level does not translate into selling at any other level. The market is finite and I cannot, at this point, estimate if my capacity or even my current throughput would ever be supported by the market demand. I think this is where business comes into knifemaking. I do not think a maker can develop a business plan unless they first know the market supports HIS work enough to meet what they have determined they are able to produce.

My fulltime job is in the business sector, and my day-to day job involves estimating production throughput and capacity, evaluating competition, and then prioritizing and managing high level product development projects that later translate into the applications which build or enhance our product. Its highly competitive and a world-wide business in which we are #1 to the point of near monopoly.

Without a full and sound business plan, that would go to the toilet in less than a year. But I do not and cannot take the ultimate product out of that plan and moreso, cannot underestimate the importance of simple supply and demand in a market where quality is a deciding factor. When selling anything, the product is always #1. We would not have a sound business plan if our focus was not creating a product that was superior to our competitors.

Bringing this back full circle, I am 100% with you as a dealer. When looking at makers and their overall success, makers without a sound understanding of business and how product driven sales work are at a severe disadvantage when compared to makers who are equally as skilled but have a grasp on the pulse of the market. But knifemaking is not as concrete as other product driven markets because of such immeasurable factors as style. Unless the market has already proven that a maker’s product is desirable, no business plan will spontaneously create those immeasurable differences.

I hope none of my comments came off as argumentative…working in business full time, I just see such a difference in the world of knifemaking. Not so much difference in the world of knife purveying, but a makers work is much more akin, in my view, to that of an artist or musician than that of a dealer.

Really interesting and informative discussion here - the content is entirely worthy of a magazine article, IMHO. So Les, just print it out and forward it to your favorite editor. And then send me a checque for $100. :) Or a credit against my next order will be fine.

On the photography point, I have to echo Les' observation about the reluctance of many makers to have their work professionally photographed. I don't interact with nearly as many makers as Les, but the amount of times that I have heard "it's too expensive.." man, it really makes me shake my head. Particularly when it comes from a full time maker.

Another spin on this issue - you know when having a web site can be a liability? When the information and photos are five plus years out of date. Some makers don't EVER update their sites. Their craft may have progressed and improved exponentially in that time frame, but a potential customer coming to their site would never know.

Roger

Hi David,

Well-put thoughts and a perspective that you are familiar with. We're all thinking this through. :) Thanks for your dialog.

Hi Roger,

Photography? I have a few thoughts..... :gossip:

Funny, but I have not encountered any online discussions or heard in any form from a maker that the pricing was too expensive. I only mean I didn't actualy hear it. The implication is abundantly apparent, though.

I just created ads for the two new online publications, and had a lengthy interview for an article on me and my photo work for BI. In my comments, I submitted that one of the most common mistakes a maker can do is hastily send out lousy images of their work. In their zest to show it off, they have LOST the emotional impact that a *really* clean image will deliver. And it is emotion that drives the sales in a discretionary product market.

First impressions are worth more than you might consider. You need to create a desire to own that knife. Personal zeal and excitement, or the always-regrettable "Sorry for the lousy pics...!" qualifier STILL never make up for lost ground.

Nuff said. (Notice there are TWO fairly new online magazines adding exposure to the market. I jumped RIGHT on that bandwagon!)

Coop

Hope this isn't to much off topic, but speaking of first impression, what do you guys think about sheaths as part of the overall package? I see lots of knives photographed without sheaths, and a lot with. Will one outsell the other? Will an educated buyer care about a sheath? They've been around for a while, consider the iceman.

On the photo, I had donated a blade to a charity raffle. They described it in glowing terms (though I still don't care for "homemade", IT'S NOT A COOKIE!!!) and it got a little attention. After Coop worked his magic and the photo was passed around, it raised $300 additional dollars in about two days!

On the sheath, I made a Gent's EDC and sent it to be sold. They manager of the site said the sheath (that I made) was a drawback and not in keeping with the knife. It sat there for two months. I had Paul Long do his magic. When the email with picture of the sheath was sent out that this knife was for sale, a response was sent in less than five hours to buy the knife.

So I would say that the photo & the sheath do matter. The photo because in our HIGHLY EDUCATED country :lol no one learns to picture things in their mind anymore (or even use it for that matter :banplease ) due to lack of reading skills. The sheath is the first thing most people see when they see a knife on a persons hip. If they see any part of the knife it's normally only about an inch or two of the handle sticking out.

As always, just one persons opinion,
Jim