O? God help us get out of here! We urge you to spread this message at every level, hoping to return home in one piece, not in a body bag.

Sincerely,

Your Sons & Daughters

--------------------------
150.164.52.1 ( <-----< this is their ip address, resolves to Brazil - Host = genesis.campus.cce.ufmg.br)
--------------------------

In respect to our Brazilian friends here, I believe this is a random act of some liberal group or person there.

In the event that some of you saw the photos of our dead soldiers, I can only offer this for comfort ...

#1 ... I've seen a noticeable decline in the number of UN Security Council resolutions that have been disregarded by rogue nations in the last couple of years. :)

#2 ... These were the first countries to announce support for the war to overthrow the Saddam Hussein government.

Afghanistan Angola Albania Australia Azerbaijan Bulgaria Colombia Czech Republic Denmark Dominican Republic El Salvador Eritrea Estonia Ethiopia Georgia Honduras Hungary Iceland Italy Japan Kuwait Latvia Lithuania Macedonia Marshall Islands Micronesia Mongolia Netherlands Nicaragua Philippines Poland Portugal Romania Rwanda Singapore Slovakia Solomon Islands South Korea Spain Turkey Uganda United Kingdom United States Uzbekistan

(quoted)
- The population of Coalition countries is approximately 1.18 billion people.
- Coalition countries have a combined GDP of approximately $21.7 trillion.
- Every major race, religion, ethnicity in the world is represented.
- The Coalition includes nations from every continent on the globe.

Test questions, College Student ...
q - Can you count the number of countries from the early list above that have escaped the rule of a dictator in the last 50 years?

a - The Majority!

Alex

PS - Don't worry! We'll come fight, and die!, for you too ... if you need us.

You know what all those dead (coalition) soldiers have in common?
1.18 Billion People who still live free!

Wait until you turn 20 ... your thinking will start to mature.
The problem with you now is that you're still a young dumbass and believe in all the liberal hype!

Hang in there, young grasshopper ... you haven't been screwed enough yet to know the difference in schoolboy ideas and reality. By the way, it's huge!

Thanks Alex,

This is all over the net, bunch of forums hit. I have warned a couple of other forums so the Mods can keep an eye out.

You are right, out military is the best in the world, and the volunteers in it give of themselves freely to help people they have never, and probably will never meet. Let us all remember to thank them whenever we can.

--Carl

Dear Stupid Person(s).

Quit livin' on daddy dime as you smoke your way through college. Go learn something about the world and our obligation as free people to serve it. Service members join of their own free will with the absolute knowledge that warriors fight wars. They do so, because you are too cowardice, and they do it by the thousands every day..., even now..., after years of conflict..., because they know that to liberate the opressed, is to do the most nobel work man can do.

I might also point out that the left-wing extremists like yourself who say prayers to an alter with Howard Dean's portrait on it before posting crap like this in places where it is not wanted, have cost a once honorable political party every shred of power and influence it once had. You lost both houses of congress, two presidential elections, and a once liberal Supreme Court. Way to go! Great strategy! This childish 'protesting' stuff is really working for ya'!

Liberal isn't a dirty word. It is a sign of education and open mindedness. Ironic that the Militant Hyper-democratic movement shows the greatest inflexibility of any activist group!

Respectfully,
Liberal, Secular, Educated, COMBAT VETERAN

P.S. You ARE a dumbass! (Thanks for the great quotable Alex!)

Thanks for taking care of this Alex, I was one of the first to see this, I was of course outraged by disinformation/PsyOps BS this message conveyed. It inpugned the good name of out current serving military members.

I hope these idiots get what they deserve. You gonna sned this to DHS? Might be Iraqi based propaganda and not just some quack.

I'm getting older and wiser , I almost threw a shoe when I read this , Good job Alex , I have a son in Iraq as we speak , he has done 2 tours there and has re-enlisted , I am so proud of him and every soldier we have. Here is a picture of him and his vehicle.

Hello all,

I will quote and coment as it goes,

150.164.52.1 ( <-----< this is their ip address, resolves to Brazil - Host = genesis.campus.cce.ufmg.br)

This IP# goes to CCE at UFMG, that's the communication and expression center of the Minas Gerais State University... probably a reduct of leftists and maybe the cause of this message resides in those students twisted view of the conflict.

In respect to our Brazilian friends here, I believe this is a random act of some liberal group or person there.

Thank you. That's exactly what it is.. leftists.

#2 ... These were the first countries to announce support for the war to overthrow the Saddam Hussein government.

Afghanistan Angola Albania Australia Azerbaijan Bulgaria Colombia Czech Republic Denmark Dominican Republic El Salvador Eritrea Estonia Ethiopia Georgia Honduras Hungary Iceland Italy Japan Kuwait Latvia Lithuania Macedonia Marshall Islands Micronesia Mongolia Netherlands Nicaragua Philippines Poland Portugal Romania Rwanda Singapore Slovakia Solomon Islands South Korea Spain Turkey Uganda United Kingdom United States Uzbekistan

And Brazil wasn't there, and that is because our constitution does not support any kind of international conflict that is not based on previous severe agression. Even though Saddam might have been a threat, our constitution (from 1988) does not support preventive attack or invasion of a foreign country. Then the Brazilian government could not, by it's own greater law, be on the list you have shown.

For some that might be inclined to criticize the Brazilian government based on what explained above please see the good job done by our guys in Haiti, very similar to what you did in Somalia.

PS - Don't worry! We'll come fight, and die!, for you too ... if you need us.

I don't think that this will be necessary, but thank you very much. I do apreciate the fact we can ASK for help if the time ever comes.

You are right, out military is the best in the world, and the volunteers in it give of themselves freely to help people they have never, and probably will never meet.

Good point Carl, and I apreciate the good will of the troops, but I think the motivation they have is not the same your politicians have and specialy the big business men that make the donations to every campaign have. I wish every voter could remember that next election, but not just when choosing a president, but every single politician elected.

Now you guys don't get me wrong. I fully respect the efforts of your soldiers and have a deeper respect for the losses of the coalision forces. The message we are discussing however does not respect the lost lives of your soldiers, and that is a shame. Please do not confuse a political point of view with a kid's misled propaganda.

But I do not agree with the political reasons of the war on Iraq. More than ever now that president Bush comes in public and admits there were no mass destruction weapons in Iraq and that he based his decision to invade in wrong (or misleading?) intelligence reports.

Is Iraq a better place now? I think it's not (yet), but it can be in the near future after the recent parlament elections that seemed to be very sucessfull.

1.18 Billion People who still live free!


I do hope that indeed they had their lives spared for free and that they don't have to pay for that with oil exploration or economic pressure in the future.

Everytime there is comotion in a third world country like Iraq or like it was in Colombia few years ago I fear Brazil can be next if USA government decides we are not "taking care" of Amazon the way we should.

The facts that there is a largely increasing number of foreign (specialy USA) researchers harvesting the forest (most diguised as missionaries for the indians) for biotechnology and that some schools in the USA have been reported to use school books with the amazon forest displayed as "international area" and not part of brazilian territory as it should, freaks me out big time! Makes me wonder of 1984 and Orwell!

You guys, as american citzens must try to place yourselves on our shoes. From down here it is scarry as hell because it looks like your freedom might come in the cost of ours. This does not aply to Iraq, of course, and my fears might not be stupid, but what I tell you is what most people think down the equador line. And when milions think alike it can't be just ignorance but there is a common sence directed by what we see regarding the USA foregin policy over the years.

Don't forget that most dicatators in Latin America were implanted during the cold war by the CIA, and most of the people that lived through those years are still alive and kicking. If you don't believe me search the Freedom of Information Acts available and you will see how Brazil, Argentina, Chile and MANY others had a VERY rough time with a USA induced dictatorships.

So please Alex, know that we fully understand what it is to have a dictator, we had one from 1935 to 1962 and military joint government from 1964 to 1984 tha \t is still revealing corpses today.

Respectfully,

I spotted this early on and alerted Alex immediately. I hope you folks realize that the little warning symbol in the upper RH corner of every post is a direct flag to alert an admin to a thread-gone-bad. I clicked it along with others, I am certain.

I opened the first photo and wished I didn't. :(

Extremism--whether political OR religion is never any good. Problem is the extremists sure paint the entire side a tainted color. I think we all know the limits in here. I am a moderate democrat myself, but I don't align myself with this type of crap at all. Hence the warning alert.

Coop

Looks like sanity rules on this forum! Lot's of good points made by all except the first poster.

The USA is not perfect and never will be because it is run by humans. We've made bad decisions and will in the future. We've been forced to fight a number of nations over the years, but Germany, Japan, Italy, ... and on through Afghanistan and Iraq are NOT part of the USA. They are, or soon will be, free nations. Freedom comes with a price - a very dear price. Someone had to stand up and say that Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Saddam, and Bin Laden could not bully the world into submission.

Brazil may fear some of the "researchers" in the rain forest. Those are NOT the conservatives in this country who went after Bin Laden. Those are the leftists who think the only army should be under the United Nations and that we would all be in some happy utopia if we all just let them do our thinking for us. Tom Clancy wrote a book about enviromental wackos that want to kill off everyone (but themselves). I had to keep putting it down because I've met those same people!

Let me send out a big thank you to Alex (for stepping on this attack), the rest of you for posting your thoughts, and to those who put their lives on the line so that we can live without fear.

Dwayne,

Tell your son that we all say, "Thank you. Job well done!"

And Brazil wasn't there, and that is because our constitution does not support any kind of international conflict that is not based on previous severe aggression. Even though Saddam might have been a threat, our constitution (from 1988) does not support preventive attack or invasion of a foreign country. Then the Brazilian government could not, by it's own greater law, be on the list you have shown.

Jeff,

Good points, all.
I assume this is now open for relaxed discussion?

The whole issue started by Iraq’s unprovoked invasion of its independent neighbor, Kuwait. Saddam Hussein is "now" the poster boy for what will happen to you if you disregard the Rule of International Law set forth by the "internationally endorsed" charter of the United Nations.

I understand that your constitution may prohibit you from jumping on another state that has not directly invaded your country (or one of your allies), but are you not the sworn ally of the UN charter countries, bound by these same international laws and agreements?

This type of international law must have teeth, or it's no good for any of us, you or I. I think we can both agree on that in principal. Right?

Of course, I may be an extremist myself ...
I, for one, believe that the time has come to dissolve the UN, or pull the USA out. I don't even understand why he (Saddam) wasn't blown away the first time he kicked the UN weapons inspectors out, much less after 18 resolutions. If I were in power then, he would have been a dust cloud the first time he violated his surrender agreement.

What does your constitution say about people who continually break the law in your country? In the USA, it states that your ass is going to jail!

On a finer point …
Does anyone in the world “truly” believe that Saddam Hussein didn’t posses WMD’s?

Alex,

Now that I'm not angry, perhaps I can add something to this conversation without ranting. I was in Iraq in 1991, so this subject is dear to my heart.

Saddam had WMD in the form of multiple chemical and biological agents. This is fact. He used them on his own people and on Iran, so he had them. Some have argued that he used all he had in the Iran Iraq war and on the Kurds. I don't believe that. Saddam was never a minimalist. If he had a particular weapon, he had lots of it! The greatest likely hood, is that every time he kicked out the inspectors, a convoy of trucks, heavy with illeagal weapons, crossed the border into Syria for safe keeping. Once the evidence was disposed of, the inspectors were welcomed back in before the bombs started falling again.

As for the misleading reason to enter Iraq, sure. It was a very safe bet that Saddam had WMD so that was the reason GWB gave the world. The truth is that any reason to depose a dictator is a good one. Now that no WMD has been found, because its all in niegboring countries, Bush is attacked by every political adversary he has, in order to put the democrats in office again.

You do not achieve the presidency by being a boy scout. You have to be a wiley, crafty, resourceful, stategist witha few people even slicker than you on your staff. Strategy wins power in Washington just as it does in warfare. That is a fundamental truth of any competitive system. Strategy involves making people think your going for a running play when you intend to pass, or making them watch the right hand while the left hand moves the pea, etc. Stategy involves deception. Hence, the most successful politicians are the biggest decievers. Yes, politicians are liars. What else is new? I expect that! A president is wiley old crook. I just vote for the one who wants to put those skills to use better the country the way I would like to if I were in that position. A good crook can get things done! An honest man (i.e., Jimmy Carter) has no political clout at all and is powerless as president!

I might also ask how many Iraqis were tortured and killed during the nineties when we could have invoked the resolutions and prevented those attrocities. Who was president then? Oh yea, the same guy who pulled troops out of Somalia at the first sign of American blood. That place has sure improved, huh?

Merry Christmas!

one thing america has to worry about is what the rest of the world thinks about us. i know most people think "what does it matter??" but popularity does matter in politics. one of my hobbies is to have penpals from different places in the world... mexico, guatemala, brazil, philippines, australia, etc. in most places their opinions of americans is down. many people think of america as having a strong arm/conqueror mentality..thats not good. if we were to get involved in a large war that was really taxing our military then have a bunch of other countries decide its time for them to change our government it wouldnt be pretty. our country is fairly secure as long as our allies outweigh our enemies. when that scale starts to tip beware.
im not saying i have the answers and know what we should be doing...just wanted to share a thought with you.

I will add my 2 cents to this and see if I can shed some light, or confuse things more depending on how you like my statements.

I am in the US Navy and CBR (Chemical, Biological, Radiological) which is reffered in the media as WMD, is one of my specialties. So, I will lend my view based upon my education to the pot.

It is a vast desert out there and a whole city could be hidden under it and not found for a long time, much less weapons. But, I think all the indicators were found, they just weren't in the form the media would accept (in a weapon pointed at us) examples are:

Biological Labs were found in buried in the desert. The media reported these as usable for civilian hospitals and dismissed them as evidence for weaponry. While true, then why bury them. These portable labs are hugely exspensive and have any civilian uses would be extremely easy to prove. Most bioligical weapons labs deal in variants of known diseases that have nothing in common with anything close to medicine that heals. What also wasn't reported is the almost all the Iraqi hospitals had no presonnel capable of effectively using these labs. The technology was way out of scale to what their hospiptals were capable of using. So, I believe that they were attempting to make or had made biological weapons.

As for Chemical weaponry, empty warheads were found which had chemical weapons in them at one time. These warheads were suspected to have been emptied just prior to invasion. We gave Sadam plenty of warning, so he had the time to get rid of stuff. Secondly, the Iraqi army was fully prepared to fight in a chemical or biological enviroment. This gear is not stuff you just issue and let soldiers keep until needed. It is expensive bulky gear, that is miseralble to fight in, that has to be kept in vacuum storage. This gear expires once it is taken out of these packages. So, traditionally it is distributed just prior to use. What is also was not considered, is that we do not use chemical or biological weaponry. The US has always stated that we reserve the right to respond to WMD used on us with the same. But that same isn't the same type of weapon, but radiological (nukes), for which the gear found on Iraqi soldies is of no use. All the Iraqi gear was most specifically to be used against chemical weaponry, with some uses against biological, which most likely was to be used as protection from their own uses of the weapons.
We brought or CBR gear because we suspected that they would use it. They brought it for the same reason.

These are just some of my opinions based upon what I know from my job. I do believe he had WMD because all the signs that support their use and manufacture were there. Signs that are extremely hard justify in any other way. This wasn't what the media was looking for so, it was dismissed. I just think is if you haven't spent the time (12 years for me) or had the opourtunity to research these things, those details are easy to miss, or very hard to make understood as proof.

I hope this is informitive.
In regards to this threads, I have recieved an e-mail from a friend that I think describes very well the sentiment of the troops on the ground (yes, the navy is on the ground in the thick of it too) I will post it if I can find it.

Well, thanks for your time

Greg

First of all let me say I apreciate you respect my points of view. I am glad to say that some information exposed here has changed some of them too. Let?s get into another round of comments then...

I assume this is now open for relaxed discussion?

Oh sure it is.

The whole issue started by Iraq?s unprovoked invasion of its independent neighbor, Kuwait. Saddam Hussein is "now" the poster boy for what will happen to you if you disregard the Rule of International Law set forth by the "internationally endorsed" charter of the United Nations.

On 1991 Brazil was supportive to the response given to Saddam. All the UN Security Council resolutions received a Brazilian supportive vote on this matter, as far as I can remember. Again, at that time, we didn?t have a leftist president who?s friends with Hugo Chaves and such kind of people... as we do now. (*sigh*)

I, for one, believe that the time has come to dissolve the UN, or pull the USA out.

No need, USA already does whatever it is pleased with. The UN today serves as a tribune where small countries can bitch about what the big ones do or a place where the big ones can gather support for the actions they will perform with or without this support. The way it is, I agree with you, it?s plain stupid. It?s a bad TV show, at least for serious security matters. The biggest problem of the UN is the permanent chairs in the security council. Is there democracy if a handfull of representatives can hold every project proposed by the others? It?s not going to work and if the most powerfull fail to respect the powers it was supposed to hold then it?s really good for nothing.

What does your constitution say about people who continually break the law in your country? In the USA, it states that your ass is going to jail!

Well Alex I guess this statement was uncalled for. Of course we try to punish our bad guys, and sometimes we do a good job, sometimes not. The fact that our country does not stand out in that list doesn?t mean that Brazil haven?t done anything to cooperate with the war on Terror with inteligence and other means, nor that our people is not simpathetic with what is going on in other places in the world. Somehow I feel that this sentece is passing judgement on ourt law and actions, and I am not very confortable with that because it makes it sound like we don?t care and will do nothing about it. And it?s just not like that.

Moving on...

The USA is not perfect and never will be because it is run by humans. We've made bad decisions and will in the future. We've been forced to fight a number of nations over the years, but Germany, Japan, Italy, ... and on through Afghanistan and Iraq are NOT part of the USA. They are, or soon will be, free nations. Freedom comes with a price - a very dear price. Someone had to stand up and say that Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Saddam, and Bin Laden could not bully the world into submission.

Good point Jack. I wonder though what was going on on their heads in Langley on the early 60?s and late 70?s when they helped to mess up good bits of the world by helping expreme conservative sectors to instal bloody dictatorships in Latin America or when they trained Bin Laden and manny o ther to fight the Russians. The idea we get from where we stand is that it?s ok to do it if it serves our agenda, but it?s bad if it does not. Bush senior himself has played a major roll (according to some freedom of information acts I have read years ago) in the development of the drug problem in Colombia when he was the head in the CIA. What I mean by all this is that even if the actions are good and legitimate like setting Iraq free or putting Taliban down for good, the events that will follow are of great concern. We will just have to wait and see.

Brazil may fear some of the "researchers" in the rain forest. Those are NOT the conservatives in this country who went after Bin Laden. Those are the leftists who think the only army should be under the United Nations and that we would all be in some happy utopia if we all just let them do our thinking for us. Tom Clancy wrote a book about enviromental wackos that want to kill off everyone (but themselves). I had to keep putting it down because I've met those same people!

I strongly disagree with you here Jack. The guys we deport everynow and then are employees of the grat USA pharmacy industry, which sends greats amounts of money to democrats or republicans. Bioterrorists or "Ecodulls" are leftists and some can be dangerous, but the people we have here are the best capitalists you can find. They might not be the conservatives who went after Bin Laden, but might be well the ones paying the bills. And I have to make some justice too, not only USA is after the bio-treasures of the Amazon forest. We get germans, UK, you name it.

Andrew and Greg,

Good points on the WMD stuff, I never thought about that in this perspective. If you have links to any news or reports about this material found in Iraq I would like to read about it. One thing though keeps flashing in my head... why didn?t he use the WMD if h had it? He surely knew the war was lost even before it started, and that?s why he dissolved the majority of the army and went in gerrilla warfare and terror. Everyone facing the USA war machine will do that in the world, you can?t fight an open war with the USA anymore. So why didn?t he use it to maximize casualties during the ivasion? Maybe he knew the war would be brought into the cities and he would kill more cvilians then GI?s but that doesn?t sound like Saddam at all. I just can?t figure...

You do not achieve the presidency by being a boy scout. You have to be a wiley, crafty, resourceful, stategist witha few people even slicker than you on your staff.

I don?t mean to be disrespectfull but that doesn?t look like a picture of Mr. George W. Bush to me. Much more like Bush senior though. If the president had a really good staff or better skills like the ones you mentioned his response to problems like 9/11 or Katrina would be much better, and would handle the situation in Iraq better to, but that is not a fact, just my humble opinion.

Greg, please try to post your friend?s e-mail if you can, I would very much like to read it.

Thank you all again!

Oh yeah, forgot to comment on this:

one thing america has to worry about is what the rest of the world thinks about us. i know most people think "what does it matter??" but popularity does matter in politics. one of my hobbies is to have penpals from different places in the world... mexico, guatemala, brazil, philippines, australia, etc. in most places their opinions of americans is down. many people think of america as having a strong arm/conqueror mentality..thats not good. if we were to get involved in a large war that was really taxing our military then have a bunch of other countries decide its time for them to change our government it wouldnt be pretty. our country is fairly secure as long as our allies outweigh our enemies. when that scale starts to tip beware.
im not saying i have the answers and know what we should be doing...just wanted to share a thought with you.

When someone disaprove what you do, it might just be a diferent point of view. When a whole lot of people disagree it might be a diferent political perspective. When the majority of people disagree with you, you might take some time to review some of your actions. The fact that the USA has the means to enforce those actions, wanted or unwanted by those who will suffer or benefit from them, is one big fat load of responsability. AUBE is right to bring this up.

Jeff, I would urge you to be VERY careful about what you hear from the news media. I have friends that have spent serious time in Iraq and Afghanistan and they will tell you that things are getting better there and that the VAST majority of people are thrilled that their previous dictatorships are gone. The same is true with the 'handling' of hurricanes Rita and Katrina. The vast majority of people picked themselves up and got on with their lives. The media only cares to focus on a few loudmouths who want to either get on TV or get money out of the deal. (For example, the idiots who are trying to claim that white people blew up the dikes to try to kill blacks. It doesn't even make sense, but it's inflamatory and so it gets news coverage.)

A girl I worked with spent a year in Iraq as a civilian contractor, primarily cleaning up environmental hazards at an Iraqi military base. She supervised a crew of Iraqis doing the work and came to know them pretty well. One had a large scar on his face and she asked him about it one day. When he turned 18, he decided not to report for manditory military duty. One night, Saddam's troops came to his house. The took his family into the street and made them watch while they beat the crap out of him. Then they made him watch as they killed every member of his family. Nice guys.

The town where they were located had many hiding places dug near the main road. That was because the road connected 2 of Saddam's palaces and he and his sons used to travel along it. When someone saw their convoy of vehicles coming, a warning went out and all the women and children dove into the hiding spots. That was because Saddam and his son's would routinely stop and grab a girl - their preference was for 10 to 12 years old - and take her with them. They would rape her, then kill her and dump the body along the road.

Do you think these people want Saddam back? They may have a long way to go to reach anything near a western democracy, but the turnout at their recent elections shows that they are moving in a positive direction.

So why did so many of our European "allies" desert us? Because they - along with the heads of the UN - were making a LOT of money from Iraq. It wasn't ethics - it was exactly the opposite. To hell with the opinions of thieves!

Did America screw up backing some of the right-wing dictators you name? Yes. Absolutely yes. We let our fear of aggression by the communists in the USSR and China cloud our thinking. On the other hand, in many of the third-world countries there weren't a lot of choices to be made. It's this dictator or that one.

The USA is a unique country because the men who founded it had lofty ideals that they believed in above all else. The English believed that our Revolutionary War was only intended to put someone in charge as dictator (king) of the country. When the army got fed up with Congress late in the war, the officers got together to vote on taking over the government. George Washington made a brief but famous speech in which he pointed out that they had fought long and hard for something greater. When word that Washington had turned down being named king, the English King George said, "Now they will make him a god." Look at how many other countries have had revolutions in which one dictator was merely replaced by another.

Jeff, 99.9% of Americans have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER as to why people in the rest of the world hate us. In some cases, we have made bad judgements. But most of the hatred comes from blind jealosy. We're actually pretty open minded about the other nations of the world - as long as they don't try to kill our citizens. It's easier to hate the guy that's well off than it is to follow his example.

Jack, my comments on the current government ablity to handle the Katrina was based both on the media and from personal reports of friends living specially in Florida. The comments on the ability to handle Iraq was totally based on the Media. You might be right about that, It is hard for foreigns to see things when they are not there. I will take that into deep consideration from now on, trusting you have a better and direct information source than I do.

If I sounded like I am defending Saddam or his regime, please, you got it all wrong! The atrocities he and his family have comited are well known here and condemed. I just try to see things in a sense of understanding things on our side, to get off the bad and wrong simplification that will eventualy lead to more conflict. Invading Iraq might have been the only decent thing to do, but if I ever stop questioning why, then I have quit thinking freely and I am as good as dead.

As for what most European countries did, my opinion is that they just choose to withdraw in order not to have terrorist attacks on their land. Fear had overcome thier will to fight, or have frightened the politicians positions in a future election if too many were killed.

The American independence war has been studied and honored in Brazil for a long time. It is regarded to be the first real fight for freedom as it happened in such a manner and before the French came with something similar, and not quite as good. I don?t know it deeply, but to some extent we know and respect your history and traditions.

Finaly, I don?t know if I ever gave the impression I don?t like americans. I have lived in your country, I made great friends for life there, have made more good friends in this forum and in others. I am always respectfull even though I may have diferent points of views and I NEVER support any kind of hate.

Hate in itself is wrong. But sometimes the right actions might bring it up in others. I not getting into the judgement of american actions, some were bad, some were good, none could ever be perfect as there is no such thing as perfection in reality. Therefore someone will always disagree, it cannot be avoided. Now just think of why some people could hate americans so much that they are willing to blow theirselves up in order to bring some of you along with them... if my country would bring that sort of hate to ourselves I would question the actions it has been conducted. That?s all I say. If you realy and honestly think it through and decide that you have to keep up the way you are going, good for you man. Good or bad, those are your free choices and nothing can take that from you. Just wanted to point out I think there is room for reflection.

Be well Jack.

My Quote:
What does your constitution say about people who continually break the law in your country? In the USA, it states that your ass is going to jail!

Well Alex I guess this statement was uncalled for. Of course we try to punish our bad guys, and sometimes we do a good job, sometimes not. The fact that our country does not stand out in that list doesn?t mean that Brazil haven?t done anything to cooperate with the war on Terror with inteligence and other means, nor that our people is not simpathetic with what is going on in other places in the world. Somehow I feel that this sentece is passing judgement on ourt law and actions, and I am not very confortable with that because it makes it sound like we don?t care and will do nothing about it. And it?s just not like that.

Jeff,
I apologize if this statement offended you, but it wasn't aimed at Brazil at all. It was made as as general point, supporting the concept that Saddam had it coming to him, due to his disregard for the international community and its established laws. My point was that the view of the American people are in-line with that viewpoint. If you hear a certain segment of our population sounding cheerful that Saddam got smoked, it's a reaction similar to their beliefs in what should happen to someone who continually breaks the laws here. My point was to have you stop and think about what was really happening, and not what the extra effects of WMD added to the urgency.

Alex

As for what most European countries did, my opinion is that they just choose to withdraw in order not to have terrorist attacks on their land. Fear had overcome thier will to fight, or have frightened the politicians positions in a future election if too many were killed.


I don't know if this is true, but it is the world's perception (mine also). If I lived in one of these countries, I would be pissed at my country's leaders. Why? Because they just put the life of everyone in their country at risk. By caving into terrorist threats, and doing what they want, it set a precident that will be used whenever a radical group wants something. Killing innocents in those countries will now be percieved as working.

However, look at the US response. Will any organization truly believe that a terrorist attack will get the US to change policy? They may still try and sting us, but I believe even that will be given serious thought, since they can't even rely on states to sheild them with a veil of legitimacy.

--Carl

Jeff, 99.9% of Americans have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER as to why people in the rest of the world hate us. In some cases, we have made bad judgements. But most of the hatred comes from blind jealosy. We're actually pretty open minded about the other nations of the world - as long as they don't try to kill our citizens. It's easier to hate the guy that's well off than it is to follow his example.

i think jealousy is a large portion of why other countries frown upon us. i think its other things too though. our country condemns wmd but is the only country to ever use nukes on a population...cities full of civlilians in fact(nagasaki, hiroshima) many polynesians ive talked to are bitter about the marshall island atomic testings. we decide to stop poisoning our own soil so we go there and take away their homes to blow it up as an experiment. now most the population of them is stuck in the poorest sections of hawaii such as h.o.v.e. we dont like other countries to produce nukes but we keep our own. then there are political situations like puerto rico....we insist that all puerto ricans have american citizenship and must obey all american laws but we dont give them the right to vote in american elections even though they can be drafted.

i think its a cumulative effect of a bunch of things put together that causes people to dislike us as a country. even when one bad soldier rapes a village girl that village will remember it for a long time and probably not think of americans in the best light.

pleeease dont take this as me being down on america or american soldiers...we have one of the greatest countries out there and for the most part our citizens are very well taken care of. im just pointing out things that ive heard others complain about. and im not saying we were wrong in doing what we have done (ill let wiser men pass judgement) but it doesnt sit well with many people.

the same type of thing happens all over the world.... a black guy is beat by white guys and he comes to hate whites....a white guy is killed by blacks and his family doesnt like blacks..a woman is raped and she comes to hate men. i bow to the people that can keep an open mind and not judge a whole country/race/sex/etc on a few actions.

that some schools in the USA have been reported to use school books with the amazon forest displayed as "international area" and not part of brazilian territory as it should,

Jeff - this is most likely because the Amazon was designated a World Heritage Zone by the United Nations and has nothing to do with any plans of the US to "takeover" that area or any other. There are in fact many areas in the US also so designated including Yellowstone Nat'l Park, Mesa Verde, and man, many others. For more info on such zones (which do not make me happy either since under the agreement they put such designated zones under the auspices of the UN and not the country in which they exist) please look up UN World Heritage Zones............and spread the word..........

I will look into that Chuck thank you for the heads up. Though that might be the case, it?s not international area, it?s Brazilian territory.

I just got an e-mail with a video atached. I guess the original poster came back, read this and decided to send me a video, or someone else didn?t like my points of view and decided to try to teach me a lesson. Well I was stupid enough to watch the few first seconds and froze for a few more before I closed it.

I am very sad right now... maybe I will drop on later and keep up the conversation.

I found the e-mail I was looking for and am now posting it. Hope you find it interesting. I recieved this from a Gunners mate friend. Some of the content will be obvious why it was sent to him.

Subject: War intel, from owner of bullet company in FL

Got this from a former Marine first sergeant - thought you might be interested in his son's assessment of weapons and enemy tactics in Iraq (the boy is home from his first tour, going back in early 2006, and early re-enlisted for another 4 years.)

Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans and interested guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to spend time with my son Jordan, who was on his first leave since returning from Iraq. He is well (a little thin), and already bored. He will be returning to Iraq for a second tour in early '06 and has already re-enlisted early for 4 more years. He loves the Marine Corps and is actually looking forward to returning to Iraq.

Jordan spent 7 months at "Camp Blue Diamond" in Ramadi. Aka: Fort Apache. He saw and did a lot and the following is what he told me about weapons, equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous info which may be of interest to you. Nothing is by any means classified. No politics here, just a Marine with a bird's eye view's opinions:

1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits can't be reliably counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact:
Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of ####. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. (that's fun in the middle of a firefight).

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!). Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.

6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model ..45's are being re-issued en masse.

8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in ..308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as #### to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the bull#### about the "old" body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.

13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!! With all our technology, it's the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.

Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47's The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like ####. Undisciplined "spray and pray" type fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. (Iran, again) Fun fact: Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of
toughness. Let's just say they know better now.

2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dog####. The enemy responded to our up-armored humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.

3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordan's area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone, and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated "shape charges"
(Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready made IED's are supplied by Iran, who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.

4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordan's NCO's lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage "inside the wire". Jordan's base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of seconds.

5) Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones, and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for navigation and "Google earth" for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.

Who are the bad guys?:

Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group. They operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi). These are mostly "foreigners", non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world (and Europe). Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian govt.) , and then travel down the "rat line" which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River that we've been hitting hard for the last few months. Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as suicide bombers or in "sacrifice squads". Most, however, are hard core terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.) These are the guys running around murdering civilians en masse and cutting heads off. The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian), are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters. (they have been fighting the Russians for years). In the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites. The Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local govt.'s, the police forces and the Army. The have had a massive spy and agitator
network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early 80's. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured or gave up long ago.

Bad Guy Tactics:

When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every time. Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing Ak's and RPG's directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They get mowed down like grass every time. ( see the M2 and M240 above). Jordan's base was hit like this often. When engaged, they have
a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting Room). We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast mover's, mostly Marine F-18's, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre gunships cut
them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night. Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all. fact: The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand. That is why we're seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber ####. The new strategy is simple: attrition.

The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and (especially) Mosques are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new
Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family members (especially children) is common to influence people they are trying to influence but cant reach, such as local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc.).

The first thing our guys are told is "don't get captured". They know that if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman. This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a #### about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death. Surrender is not an option.

The Iraqi's are a mixed bag. Some fight well, others aren't worth a ####. Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but they are getting better. It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of suicide bombers, en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake. Many Iraqi's were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the police forces went up, along with their motivation. It also led to an exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi's are sick of the insurgent attacks against civilians. The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters.

According to Jordan, morale among our guys is very high. They not only believe they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They are stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1 and then see #### like "Are we losing in Iraq" on TV and the print media. For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food and leadership. Bottom line though, and they all say this, there are not enough guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the insurgency, primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just cant stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally
(with, of course, permanent US bases there).

That's it, hope you found it interesting, I sure did.

it´s this whole head cutting thing.. really disturbing. Told my wife about the video and she wanted to see, didn´t let her. Well... regarding those bastards, blast them all.


Alex, apologies taken... in fact it was my mistake... I got it all wrong. Sorry and please disregard what I wrote then.


Carl, I remember something that Israel did in the 60´s or 70´s... they made a law where everyone kidnaped by terrorist os gerilla would be considered instantly recruited by the armored forces and therefore had the duty to die for their country. Full benefits from the government were issued in that case, and they always tried rescues, but NEVER EVER negociated. Kidnaps don´t happen in the area anymore. Thing is we are very sensitive about what they do to prisioners. When I saw that video I was shocked and something really disturbing (apart from the images) is that it´s purpose had been acomplisehd. It terrifies, generates hate, and frustration and sadness.

AUBE, a few weeks ago Brazilian soldiers in Haiti were accused of slautering 20 (more less) locals by some leftist NGO´s (non-government organizations). The response of the media and government was plain. The ministery of defense stated the shooting did take place, and there were casualties on that number, and they were all necessary. A week later the major TV network in Brazil made a two ours special on Haiti. Made interviews with the troops, locals, and government people. They showed the good, the bad and the ugly. Most of that was good, and we understood it was a good thing our guys were doing there. I see the USA media however against your own troops! Is that just interest to sell news? Are they supporting the next democrat in the next election? I just can´t understand their agenda!

Regarding jealosy... well in Brazil popular opinion is negative and mostly comes from economic pressure. We get a lot of cheaper products and brands from the USA. Colgate, TexaCO, Hollyday In, you name it! Big bucks come with heavy investment and completely kills local business with subsidy from headquarters. But again, it´s our fault too because we buy those products. The political attitude is also a problem. We remember the dictatorship period, and we see other things happening in the world. We see that the Kyoto protocol hasn´t been signed and that the negociations on the World Trade Organization are also going nowere. The point is, if freedom is in... why not economic freedom as well? cut off subsidies and other such actions that are bad for international commerce? And so forth... that´s what the majority of the Brazilian people thinks about the USA, plus the general ignorance.

Everyone knows at least one American who asked at least once if Buenos Aires is the capital of Brazil, who asked if we have aligators on the street and if indians are too much of a problem to fight... I have personaly met a person in Florida who was deeply offeded because we didn´t celebrate the 4th of July! I have lived in the USA and the general ignorance provoqued by the educational system really jumps to the eyes. You have one of the best educational systems in the world, but it is directed to math and sciences and subjects directly related to production wich is really one of the biggest aspects of your sucess, but it also generates a very limited interpretation of what there is out of your country. I consider the people in this forum VERY well informed and really openminded if compared to the folk I have met in Freso CA and San Bernardino County CA where I lived. Good, very good people, but ignorant about the world out there.

Go4it, thank you for the very informative text. I guess that will help inform the guys going there and also the guys like me about what´s going on.

i dunno if there is political motivation behind our news but i do know they report on the negative because misery sells. the vast majority of the news we get where i live is all negative. chemical leaks, car accidents, shootings, gang crimes, racism, etc, etc. every once in awhile they will throw in a story about a cancer survivor or something but most of it is negative. the same thing applies when they are reporting on military aspects. typical reports headline something like this

"US troops killed from friendly fire"
"14 US troops died today"
"US troops accused of killing innocent civilians"
"US military being probed for prison abuse"
"channel 23 would like to thank our troops for risking their lives for freedom"

i find it ironic when i watch an hour of news and its all negative then they offer a big thank you to those they were just casting a bad light on. im sure there are miraculous stories of courage and morality happening near daily over there...too bad they dont concentrate on that.

the same thing applies to most media.... even movies and talk shows. it says something about the producers that market bad news.....it says even more about the population that thrives on it.

buenos aires?? everyone knows the capital of brazil is guadalajara! (im kidding...its brasilia isnt it?) i agree about the ignorance. for example ive been talking about visiting the philippines and most people say "eww why do u want to go there?" later i show them coral reefs, limestone cliffs, white sand beaches, tropical islands, beautiful wildlife, open air markets, low prices and they say "wow! where is that? i want to go there" i love saying "thats the philippines" sure there are bad things about the country, but there are good too....i just wish people would gather as much info as they can before passing judgement.

I told myself I was going to stay off this thread, but I couldn't after reading Jeff's latest.

Jeff, a lot of Americans don't know the capital or history of Brazil because of the dumbing-down of our schools. (My father is a retired school teacher and refers to the teacher's union as "those communists".) The big dogs in education have decided that it's more important to feel good about yourself than to know anything. In my son's history book, there is no study of World War II. Instead, they have "Life During the War", which shows how women worked in factories, minorities got better jobs, and (of course), everyone suffered. (A big part of the leftist agenda here is that we all need to suffer together.) Kids aren't taught the geography and history of Brazil. They are taught that you are burning down the rain forest that is full of magic cures for cancer.

Numerous studies have shown that the news media in the US is heavily leftist. But mostly they are just greedy and arrogant. They support the candidate that provides them with the easiest inflammatory stuff for them to get ratings. Bill Clinton was very popular with the press because there was a new scandal every month and because his administration wasn't particularly good at covering them up - except with new scandals.

As for the economy of Brazil, I think most Americans are frustrated that there doesn't seem to be an easy way to turn the economies of countries like yours around. By all rights, Brazil should be a wealthy nation. So should Mexico and other such countries with vast natural resources. This, of course, leads into the rainforest discussion again. The enviro-wackos seem to think that Brazilians are burning down rain forest out of ignorance! It makes no sense and is, in fact, insulting. Since these people totally ignore facts, it becomes impossible to change their minds.

We see the beautiful artistry of the knifemakers from Brazil and are in awe. The few products from Brazil that make it here (e.g., Taurus guns!) are terrific. (Right now, imports from China are so cheap that they are killing every other manufacturer.) The reality is that we have far more in common than we have ever had as differences.

We get a little defensive about our country and our armed forces - and rightly so. But we highly respect your observations, Jeff. An, as a country, Brazil is far more respected here than you might think.

I will add one more thing to this thread.

It is a positive story, well definately heroic.

Its about a friend of mine that I worked with at my last command. He is an HMC (corpsman chief). He got stationed in Iraq (told you there are navy on the ground) and I went to a ship in SE asia. He works with the Marines as their Doc. He was with a convoy with his group when the vehicle he was in was hit with an IED (improvised explosive device). Many people were wounded including Pat. But, what did he do?, he started treating all the wounded around him, crawling at times since he was wounded himself, to save as many as possible, Ignoring his own condition. That's part of what it means to do our jobs, to step up and do what we are supposed to in spite of the difficulties. He is alive and well now, and I believe going to recieve the navy cross (second highest medal to the Medal of Honor). Bet you won't find the media covering that. The IED was left by the insurgents for whomever to run across it, civilian or military with out direction set to kill anybody.

Very good Jack. The point I was trying to make was that, no matter if democrat or republican, picture the education the president and his staff got. And much more important, the education the big shots who finance their campaigns and later demand the proper agenda. That scares me. I know for sure, and never doubted this, that Americans respect Brazil, even though there is lack of good information on the educational system, but in general, it aplies to the rest of the world. Remember a few years ago when Nike was reported to have factories in Asia where children would work for a dollar for a day making expensive tennis shoes? What world geography and history background do you think thier headmen had? What if that was a company like McDonald Douglas, Colt, or any other big one that is run by ignorant men that is very concerned about the wellfare of the USA citzens but doesn't give a crap about the rest of the world, not because the is a bad person but because he just doesn't know any better? I am not trying to flame the conversation Jack or trying to change your votes or anything... just reflecting.

Now our economic problems are completely our fault, or well, mostly. Most latin countries developed high international debts during their dictatorship eras in order to finance their late industrialization. The dictators were instaled by the CIA and the money land from USA banks, no surprises here. But the interests were so high that even today we are paying debts from the 70's and 60's mixed up with renegociations and new deals with IMF. This is the part where foreign states might have helped us into the hole, but the vast majority of the guilt in our economic problems are related to our idiotic administration and corruption. Though brazilians in general feel that there is economic opression by the USA the truth is right now, for a number of reasons, we can't do better. As I said, rich countries use their wealth to enforce this economic domination, but that's part of the game in modern capitalism. We are getting better thoug.

By the way, Springfield Armory 1911 series are ALL made in Brazil by IMBEL, a government related weapons company wich provides ammo and rifles to the brazilian army. USA also buys steel from us (we fight the subsidies policy of your government for years cause we can do better and cheaper steel), soy, chicken, pork, beef, coffee, orange juice (another subsidy problem) and lots of other finished products like finished furniture, etc.

Hello,

I hadn't intended on posting but after getting an email from Jack and a hurried response I thought it best that I come read the entire thread for myself. Well sometimes a response is actually called for.

First and foremost I want to make sure that everyone understands that this is strictly my opinion and not representative of anything other than my own experiences. I recently returned from a deployment to Afghanistan and Im currently preparing for a second trip back. My job, without detailing it, was one that had me work in concert with the Afghan Army. This unique job gave me a lot of insight that I otherwise wouldn't have of both the progress and the culture of the local populations throughout the country.

Go4It,
I read you post above and while I do have a lot of reservations about your friend’s insights into the shortfalls and strengths of the weapons we are using, there is some correlation between Iraq and Afghanistan in the progress that is being made.

The people generally are still afraid of the terrorists throughout the country. ( I refuse to call them insurgents because in my mind that gives them some legitimacy in their actions.) The fear that many have is slowly being reduced by the actions of coalition forces but more so by the response THEIR ARMY and THEIR GOVERNMENT to counter the criminal element.

The terrorists are, in fact, quite well organized and some very much resolved in their actions, as has been experienced throughout the country. One of the falsities perpetuated by the media is that they have increased their activity. Well there is more combat action throughout the country, but that is generally as a result of the Afghans moving into areas that had been totally controlled by the Talib. This invasion of Afghan and coalition forces into their sanctuaries has forced the enemy into situations of desperation. That desperation has caused more actions throughout the country.

The Talib have long relied on the ignorance of the population. Please do not take this as a slight on the population. It is not intended so. The ignorance I refer to is a result of illiteracy. The inability of the general population to read or write, forces the population to rely on a select few to interpret the written word both news and religious works. The folks that are relied on for that information are the Mullah (clerics). This has been historically true throughout the region. The Talib, translated means student, spent a great deal of time learning to read and write while in Pakistan during the Russian occupation. Therefore their spin on things is all that the people know.
The Coalition forces in Afghanistan are trying to combat that by building schools for both boys and girls. These are all throughout Afghanistan now and are the prime targets of the terrorists. Schools are regularly burned, school supplies destroyed and teachers threatened, tortured or killed. The coalition is making progress in spite of this. This is seen by the reaction of the Afghan Government, the military but mostly the children. They want to go to school. Ten years ago a sign of status that a child would want would be an AKM or RPG. Today they want a pen or pencil. That cultural swing is a major sign of progress.
I couldn’t possibly list all of the individual success stories here but in many areas there is now wells for fresh water, roads so that food and other supplies can now reach remote villages, generators providing electricity, agricultural expansion through irrigation. The Arghandab dam repaired and providing water throughout the Kandahar valley after a 30 year drought. The first freely elected government in 5000years. Women taking an active role in the governing of their country as both voters and elected officials. Fact is you can’t depend on the media for what’s really going on in either place.

A funny anecdote: After an 18 day mission myself and team went to chow to get something substantial in our stomachs. They have TV’s in some of the mess-halls with AFN (Armed Forces Network). We sat and ate and watched CNN intently as they detailed an action that had occurred in Afghanistan. After about 10 minutes of watching someone figured out that they were talking about the mission we had just returned from. It was so disjointed coupled in inaccuracies that we didn’t recognize that they had been talking about where we had just come from. Mind you there were NO media types out there but the report went on.

It does amaze me though, in our fast food world today, we base success on time. A lot of us forget that it took from 1776-1787 before the US had a government that all of the people could agree on.

Jeff,
Your Capitol City is Brasilia (forgive my spelling it's been a while since I looked it up) your President is from the workers party and maintains a fairly left wing view of politics. Your country is doing quite well over all with a fairly low unemployment rate and a GNP that, while marginally, has in fact maintained positive growth.

I’m glad that you take the time to learn and more so that you voice your opinion. Active educated people can only make our world a better place.

Everyone:
A quick point of fact in a land locked country like Afghanistan we have all branches of the military working together to get the job done...Not just soldiers but Airmen, Sailors and Marines...along side about every lawenforcement department from our country. Its a team event and I would be willing to bet its true in Iraq as well.

Jim

Jeff,
Your Capitol City is Brasilia (forgive my spelling it's been a while since I looked it up) your President is from the workers party and maintains a fairly left wing view of politics. Your country is doing quite well over all with a fairly low unemployment rate and a GNP that, while marginally, has in fact maintained positive growth.

I?m glad that you take the time to learn and more so that you voice your opinion. Active educated people can only make our world a better place.

Thank you Cpt. Jim, that was very nice. The information you got is fairly good, including the spelling you got right, only that our unemployment rates aren?t that low. Right now are somewhere 17% to 18%. In my state they are close to 6,8% wich is good. The real problem in Brazil is wealth distribution, which masks the GNP and other social numbers. More than 70% of the GNP is in the hands of less then 3% of the population, more or less (don?t have the offical numbers right now, but quite like that).

Your information is greatly apreciated and I hope Iraq goes the same direction.





Two interesting notes on Brazilian News last night:

NOTE #1:
Yesterday the ABIN (Brazilian Inteligence Agency) have transfered all the dictatorship period documents, dated from 1964-1990 from their vaults to the National Archives and they will be available to the population with no restrictions from 1964-1975. You are free to ask for information on yourself and direct relatives, but can?t ask for information regarding others not related to you. Documents from 1975-1990 still have to be rated CLASSIFIED, SUPER CLASSIFIED or FREE before liberated. Classified documents will be available in 20 years from it?s origination and Super Classified in 30 years from their origination. Lot?s of things will come out now.

Fun fact (FUN?!?!): one minister of the current government name Jos? Dirceu, recently taken away from public life by political investigation process, have been in 1969 a member of a gerilla group called Araguaia Guerilla wich was hunt down and exterminated during the "lead years" of the military government. Only a handfull of their number were able to scape. He had left the country and came back with false identity and got married. Lived under a false name, not telling anyone about it, including his wife and kids (with whom he lived for 10 years). He came back to his true identity after the anisty in 1982. Jos? Dirceu is a personal friend of the President and has been kept away from public life now because is acused of running a corruption network that bought votes on the congress from several parties using stolen money from national government companies.

NOTE #2:
The prosecutor office of the Amazonia state is investigating a case of experiments on humans made by American researchers on the Malaria Disease where they inoculated 12 brazilian citzens. The Florida University had an agreement with Oswald Cruz Foundation (government bio-research institute) to research the disease. The english version of the agreement kept in the USA has the phrase that authorizes the tests in humans, while the portuguese version deposited in the Brazilian Government doesn?t. They are trying to pass it as a translation mistake that got 12 people contaminated. None of those were killed, but they all stated that the researchers did not offer any treatment and they were in fact treated by the public health care structure. Oddly the only "mistranslation" is the phrase that authorizes the tests in human beings, the rest of the text is perfect. And what scares the most, the original english text wich was proposed by Florida university was WRITTEN with that phrase... which means they indended to conduct tests in humans!

Anything about this last one in USA news ???