From my understanding, when annealing, the knife is brought just past critical (non-magnetic) and then cooled as slowly as possible.

Question, Has anyone tried using a small cooler filled with vermicalite to anneal with?
I was thinking, if it keeps beer cold, would it work in the reverse, and be slow for cooling.

If anyone has some thoughts please throw them in, I plan on forging this weekend.

Thanks for the help. :)

NT Yard'n Ape Mckay

...and if that hot knife comes in contact with that plastic or styrofoam cooler......

...and if that hot knife comes in contact with that plastic or styrofoam cooler......
As a paid-on-call firefighter, let me rephrase that.
Anneal in vermicalite in a metal box, inserted into a vermicalite lined beer cooler!
:lol
Any thoughts?
NT Yard'n Ape McKay

Just checking :D

The vermiculite itself is an insulator. Your heart is in the right place, but it may be overkill.

Well I am planning on starting my Neo-Tribal KITH knife this weekend, and I was thinking the better annealed, the better the hand filing would go.
Thanks for your help. :)

NT Yard'n Ape McKay

I looked around my little workspace ( butt up against snowblower handles )
and spied a cast iron pot with a cover..
As I had already used it to melt lead for running ball;
I knew it couldn't be used for cooking food in..
Soooooooo - filled it with vermiculite and with the cover on; works good
Have ya gots a pan with a cover ya can swipe from the lady of the house ??
If not, how about a 5 gal. steel bucket with a cover ??
Just some Neo-Devo thinkin..
:eek: :eek:
Be well
Thom--- Neo-Devo Limpi'n Frog Davis
push on the chain ??? :lol :lol

When I made my annealing setup, I went to Ace and got a 10 gal galvanized trash can. Then once at Lowes I bought 6 bags of vermiculite in the garden dept., and that's what I use. I try to do something taught to me my Fitzo and that's heating up some plates of steel to go in the can just before the blade does, or better yet, heating up the plates and blade all at once, and putting them in the vermic. Takes a good 24+ hours to get to room temp that way. I keep the can tighly covered all the time (with or without hot steel) to keep the moisture out, that stuff really absorbs it.

Something that takes way less time is to spheroidize it. Just hold it under critical for an hour or so and let air cool. Its best to keep it between 25 and 100f below. Really easy to do with even the most basic setup. Works wonders. :101

I have used vermiculite in a 5 gal paint bucket to do this. It is a great insulator and doesn't need a special container, only about 1 1/2" inch around the blade. I did get a few laughs at a blacksmith demo when someone thought I was using kitty litter. My only problem was once getting a hot blade close to the bucket wall which caused a small bubble to form in the bucket. I'm still using it 4 years later. The metal bucket is probably a better idea as Rocker relates.

You should be aware that vermiculite is an asbestos mineral, probably more stable than some but has caused health problems for people working with it over time. Beware the dust; on you, your clothing, inhaling.

I've been using the afore mentioned "cooler" for a number of years with great results. Several years ago I was on a scrounging run to the local recycling yard and happend upon a large aluminum pespi cooler (just like the big plastic ones we have today, with hinged lid and all) I picked it up, gave the guy at the scale $1 for it, and it's been the "annealing tub" in my shop ever since.

I've never been very happy with spheroidized annealed stock, especially when dealing with 52100 and 5160. But that's just me.

Why wouldn't that work just fine, I thought. Ideally a oven could be used to control the decrease in temperture but I assume you are working from a forge. Sounds good to me. Simple is sometimes best.

RL

I couldn't agree most with that last statement. Uderstand the basics......and keep your procedures simple! I have watch countless people over the years get buried so deep in their processes, that they loose sight of why their doing it all.....and they most often wind up getting frustrated to the point of quitting without every realizing where the frustration is coming from.

I often get a little wrapped around the axle with the "egghead" crowd who think that because ther isn't a vacuum heat treat oven, or some such other equipment in a shop, that you or I couldn't possibly create a decent blade. These seem to be the same people who often use the term..... "Well, the book says......." True examples of individuals who have been educated beyond their intelligence.

Ironically, I started spheroidizing since I started getting back to basics(scrapers and files instead of production tools like the grinder). The only electric appliances are the thermometer, blower for the forge and lights for the shop. The reason I like it so much is that I dont have to wait a whole day to work on it which means I can finish the knife faster, even with hand tools and I have seemed to get better results this way than using vermiculite especially with alloys like 15n20 and L6. Even really simple ones seem to benefit really well.
If the books says it works and it works then why have a problem?

Jesse,

I wasn't railing on you.....when I spoke about the "eggheads" I was referring to that group of people who read something in a book, and then without ever trying it, go around telling everyone that it HAS to be done that way. An example were two "Professors" of metallurgy from one of the colleges out here, that came to my shop one weekend to witness differential heat treating, and what a blade treated in that manner could do. Even though they witnessed me chopping 2x4s, shaving paper, and then bending the blade 90 degrees, both left my shop muttering that it was some kind of trick, and that it was impossilbe to make the alloy I used perform in that manner. I contacted one of them later in an attempt to clarify what had taken place and this is what I was told.......... "I have a Master's Degree in Metallurgy, and have never read that anything of that nature was possible. If it were a viable means of heat treatment, then someone would have written it into a text some where." He was less than cordial when he told me this, and of course in response I asked if he had personal experience in any of the methods he taught. I was told in no uncertain terms "I don't need to have hands on experience!" "I have a Master's Degree." This is what I mean when I speak of those who are educated beyond their intelligence.

I think that each of us must use the methods that work for us......in our individual shops. What works for one person, does not necessarily work the same way for the next, simply because there are so many variables from shop to shop. That's the main reason I always tell students to use what I teach them as a basis.........and to improve on it by taking the next logical step. Again, I wasn't dogging on you.......just mearly stating what does and doesn't work for me.

"I have a Master's Degree in Metallurgy, and have never read that anything of that nature was possible. If it were a viable means of heat treatment, then someone would have written it into a text some where." He was less than cordial when he told me this, and of course in response I asked if he had personal experience in any of the methods he taught. I was told in no uncertain terms "I don't need to have hands on experience!" "I have a Master's Degree." This is what I mean when I speak of those who are educated beyond their intelligence.

Heh, how does that guy think new texts get written if not by learning new things are possible. Kind of makes his job pointless if everything there is to know, we already know.

That's the reason I sometimes get annoyed with someone who taunts themselves as an "expert". Believe me, I sure don't know everything about what we do, but oftem times I know a far sight more about the practical applications than some of those who would have you believe they know it all, based on a diploma. I suppose I do carry some contempt, but it's not a blanket type........I have met, and know some very open minded, forward thinking people who are metallurgists, and I hold the utmost respect for them. It's the ones who THINK they know it all that irritate me.

Sorry, The egghead remark kind of got to me. I thought I was the one you were referring to. I couldn't agree more with the last couple posts. Too many people out there just know everything without actually having done it. Also, I have noticed that many of the things that are in the books don't really apply to us since they are talking about big industrial applications.

Ed, Now be nice. I also have a Masters Degree in Metallurgy. However, I have been in the oil industry and the steel industry most of my life and have learned one thing above all else: Just when you think you know it all, someone comes along and humiliates you. Yep, I have probably pontificated a few times, mostly to the other end of the spectrum. You know the ones who really know absolutely nothing but the vocabulary but like to correct everyone. I get fed up with ignorant people who cannot learn the basics but like to pretend they are wizened old practioners of the ancient arts. However, I have been thoroughly impressed with the level of technical expertise on this forum. I have been totally blown away with the work being displayed on the Damascus forum. In the best of all worlds, we can all add to the working knowledge, either by practice or by education or both. :101

I agree with you. Education is the key to any of this. Formal education should be the basis, but without some practical experience in whatever field the endevor includes, it often times comes down to knowledge not being enough.

The reason I got off on a tangent about this is that over the past few years I've had several instances occur very similar to what I mentioned. Basically someone trying to tell me my business based on a piece of paper that says they completed a course of study. As you mentioned they knew all the terms, and their definitions, but had zero insight as to the practical application of the supposed knowledge they possessed. I have nothing against eduction......I hold two degrees myself.............but when that education/degree is an excuse to be arrogant and self centered, that's when my tolerance ends.

I'm willing to listen to just about anyone, and I believe that there is aways something to be learned from each individual you meet, but when things turn into a know it all attitude, then I tend to shut the door.

OK, now that the explaination is over, we can get back to more fun and friendship, and keep throwing ideas around! :)

Quenchcrack...... pleased don't think any of this has been directed towards you. You're are a valuable asset to the forums, and from the all post of yours that I read, you've shown yourself as such.

Ed, The more I read these forums the more humble I become. I came to teach and became a student!

I work for a PhD who is 20 years younger than me. He and I graduated from the same College. Actually, he is not a bad guy, it is just the very attitude you describe. No matter what the subject, HE is the expert...................I guess he just hasn't realized that youth, enthusiasm and education is no match for experience, treachery, and deviousness! :evil

Then you know EXACTLY the kind of person I'm talking about. One thing that I have no tolerance what so ever for is arrogance. People like what you mentioned are the "eggheads" that I was referring to.

It's a shame that those who are young with an education like that can't look in the mirror and realize just what kind of Pompus, Headstrong, Dinks (PhDs) they sometimes really are.