No doubt this post will not come out sounding like I want it to. Im sure its gonna look like whining, but its not supposed to, I just want real input here, so lets not beat around the bush.

What is wrong with my pictures? I have entered most of the contests and have generally done very poorly. I do not know why.

I have entered pics with full digital backgrounds, plain natural ones and everything inbetween. I have entered evenly lit, unevenly lit, bright and dark photos.

I have entered different styles. I have entered knives overlayed on backgrounds with no shadows or depth and some with depth and shadows.

You get the idea. I have entered some pics that were only average, but in my opinion I have also entered some extremely well done pics that have it all....good lighting, focus and background setting.

I have lost miserably to pics that are terribly out of focus, piss poor lighting and ugly backgrounds. Sometimes the pics I lose to have one of those faults, sometimes they have them all.

I have been emailed that I lost because a pic was good but my lighting was a bit off. Then the next week I will lose to a pic that have that same fault only worse.

I have heard some people vote for a pic that is not well lit, washed out and out of focus....but the background was kinda cool. I do think some are voted on because the pic was done by a favorite maker or a buddy. It has been stated that some get votes even if their pic stinks just so they dont get discouraged. Sometimes I think that if I took the largest bowie I own and shot it on a nifty looking background with NO concern for lighting or decent focus it might have a better chance.

Lets hear it, what is your take on this? I know this sounds bitter. I asked so DO NOT hold back on anything, lets have it straight.

Richard, I think that you have a legit beef. I thought on a few occasions that you had a terriific pic and you never got a vote. I have had some good pics and a few crappy ones, but in most cases I had a very poor record good or bad. Look at this week... I felt being a moderator was a liabilty to being in the contest. Look at Terrill's record yours and mine. Look at some of Phil's work and he hardly got a whiff! I am not alluding to a fix, but the few people that vote have weird taste. The answer is to change your name to Fred Carter and most weeks you'll win.
Just thank God that you don't make a living doing this.
Your friend,
Steve

Yep Steve, I think you nailed it with your observation. You added some good insight here and I appreciate it very much. I was seeing it happening only to me, but as you correctly pointed out it has happened to a few of us.

Hello ...

Am I missing something here? I thought we just put a photo up and took the voting results on the chin? If anyone's worried about some kind of "fix", then I can't help you. I'm the only one with access to the voting poll and no one can touch it. I did change it back to a 3-day cookie expiration. But, that was requested by everyone weeks ago.

Then ...
I could care less about friends voting for friends and such. That's part of life. If your photo is equal to another's, then people are just going to vote their own way. However, if you're going to win the "CKD Photo of the Week Contest", you're going to have to put something up that can get the job done. Who's cares what you personally think about your own efforts. When it comes to the contest, your entry is only one of many. And, it has to compete! The votes will decide, you don't need to.

I don't know anything about photography, other than what I like when I see it. I assume that's pretty much where everyone else comes from too. I never put a photo up that don't think can win, but I don't win every week. The same applies to Fred and all the rest.

My personal opinion is that the problem arises in the critiques each week. We're a good bunch of guys and no one wants to tell you that your work just plain sux, when it did. That goes for everyone, myself included. That's why I never take much from the things. I let the voting do my critiques for me.

Another thing about this competition is that the longer it goes on, the harder it will be to win. There will come a day when a "turd on a table" will not work any more. It's already beginning to happen, in fact. So, if that's what you're going for, chances are, you're not going to fare that well come voting time. However, once again, who knows ... just create for your own eye.

In my business, there is a similar phenomena. That is, every man that walks in this door claims to be a great designer with all the skills. And, I don't doubt that they even believe it ... they probably do. However, it's almost never the case. When told, "sure ... you could work here, in a learning capacity" ... after seeing their work is not up to a certain level, most of them never come around for a second interview. Rejection is very tough, especially when it's very personal.

It takes a special kind of person to handle rejection without taking it personally, learning from it and applying the skill. Some men crumble under the stress and are crushed asunder ... other's take it differently and harden their resolve.. And, that's what separates the warrior from everyone else.

Everything else is talk!

That's as honest as I can get!

Alex

I would say thats pretty honest Alex and I am grateful for it. However, dont drop hints about "if a pic sucks" or whatever. I am looking for direct input. Nobody should feel they need to hold back if they want to say something negative to me. I asked for input so feel free to address comments directly to me. Do MY pics suck? Are they boring? Are they artistically bad or technically bad? I am trying to get something from this so please be as direct as you can.

Every style of picture has won the contest: white background, colored background, props, plain, natural, outdoor lighting, studio lighting. It has been won by moderators, admin, CKD members that participate in the forums heavily, folks that do not post, makers, collectors, photographers and amateurs using digital, 35mm film, scanned pics and scanned negatives, sometimes touched up with software and sometimes not. The goal is to promote better pictures to hook the collector into interest in a knife. Some pictures win because the draw an emotional response. Isn't that the goal? When a knifemaker is at a show, he wants the collector to pick up his knife and have an emotional response. Technical skills are required to produce a product that is worthy of that response, be it a knife or an image, but it is the "art" that catches the eye.

Fred Carter wins because he strives for perfection. He makes excellent knives, he does his own superb engraving and inlay, why shouldn't he care about his pictures as well. If you made a $5000 knife, wouldn't you want a $5000 picture?

Alex has won because he strives for excellence in everything he does.

Rade went for weeks without votes, but steadily improved himself until he won. Now look how consistent he is.

Wulf had a shot that wasn't perfect, but it definitely drew you in emotionally and he won with it.

Gene Lee got all the elements right a put in a superb picture that won.

If you want a critique, email the winners privately and ask them how they do it. You are making very broad assumptions that there is some kind of buddy-buddy system going on here. Technical proficiency alone is not going to do it. I spend time at some web design forums and there is this group of developers that think you are not a web designer unless you hand code everything or you have been formally educated. Well, guess what? The customer does not care about that. They want results and they want a site that is going to promote them. Educated people have bad taste, too.

Look at the cross section of winners. They are broad and varied. The clearest picture is not always going to win. Who is your customer? The knife maker and knife collector or another photographer? Technique only gets you in the door, what are you going to do to grab their attention?

To Alex, Bob, and any other interested party,
Before this topic blows completely out of proportion I would like to say that there is no FIX and there is no BUDDY situation. There is some correlation to being a moderator and performing poorly I don't know what it is other than we all suck as photographers. This is the last thing that I have to say about this subject.

Richard, I consider you a friend and I know how seriously you take your work. I have never been shy about critiquing your work when you asked and sometimes when you didn't ask. Allow me to be blunt, your work is all over the place, this contest is about one pic and it's not. I think consistant entries get remembered from one week to the next. Also the quality of the work goes up each week so it's harder to win, but that's a good thing. If you try to follow in the style of the last pic that won you'll end up chasing your tail, which is what I think is happening to you right now. You're trying to figure what do I need to do to win instead of what did I do right and what could I have done better? I have no clue as to what it takes to win a contest here? I do know that the style I'm trying to perfect is not what the voters were looking for. I was getting a lot of "Wows, and how did you do that?" and no votes. I knew I wasn't going to change directions to suit the voters, I just came to the realization I didn't offer what the voters were voting for. So what?

I have made the suggestion before that all the entries should be on one page as thumbnails, to make it easier to compare and to vote for. I'm told it can't be done. I don't need to see the names on pics of most entries I can tell just by style who did what.

If I were to consider just your entries and why none have won; it would be lack of a consistant style, sometimes they are too contrived and less than great execution. Don't get me wrong, I know you are entering your best and really want to win, but I think you are letting the tail wag the dog.

Richard,

I can't comment on your image from last weeks competition because it was removed from the boards.

However, here's the way I would look at it.

0-1 votes = sux
2-3 votes = kinda sux
4+ votes = promising

The voting is the real tale of the tape ... my opinion is only marginal.

Alex

I offer this observation:

Most of us are not professional knife photographers. None of us, to my knowledge, is a professional photo contest judge. Therefore, contest results will be only one thing, and that is "subjective."

I think that it might be almost impossible to provide constructive, objective critiques here when the votoing criteria are purely subjective. As Alex said, if an entry polls enough votes to win the contest, it was a good picture. Doesn't mean the other entries were necessarily crappy- it just means they weren't good enough to pull the voters in in light of the competition.

I don't know how practical this idea is, but let one person each week judge the entries and explain why he picked the winning knife picture. This might make for a fairer contest.

Let's return the voting machine to Florida and get us a brand spanking new fangled machine. Then we can stop all the complaining about the voting. Anyone who has a $2.00 light box and $10.00 lights and a ####ty old Sony digi must have an outdated Florida voting machine.
Please Alex, update the system, it will help you too. :rolleyes:

As an active voter and some one who almost always mouths off a bit after the vote is in I think I have something to say here.
Dogman and Don have said it best, re-read their posts but also consider the following. A lot of those knives have an emotional pull just because of the knife. It is hard to vote for a good photo of a knife you don't like.

Other than my feelings that some knives make the contest uneven at times, I personally believe this contest is very fair. Face it, if it wasn't fair we would always vote for Alex or Dogman, looking for brownie points. I don't think I have voted for Alex yet.

If I was voting for buddies I would always vote for Max, and I have only voted for him once.

R. Todd, I think your shots are excellent from the technical side, but if you wanna sell knives you gotta make me wanna pick them up.

Come on guys, shoot knives you really care about, and make me see them the way you perceive them. Make me care about them.

Last week was an excellent display of photos....no one really lost.

My NSHO.

ghostdog

Steve thanks much for your input. Nice shot of that meerdink BTW.

Phil, I know you are very honest about critiques, thats why I have always asked you and respect your advise. I like the fact that you will point out a fault, but you also suggest how it might be fixed.

Alex, I think ya missed my point. I wanted individual opinions, not simply avoiding them by saying "the voting tells the tale". I know that, I was asking what you yourself thought. I know from reading your stuff that you are capable of telling it straight...so please do. Not just for the week 15, but for my pics in general. They of course will not all be avaliable since I never subscribed to photopoint and have not moved all my pics to a new server yet. Your right, the week 15 was removed at my request. Here it is for your critique.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/pc5d118a2a8c057afa534b011d19a31a9/fe58cc29.jpg.orig.jpg

Dont be shy folks....If you have something constructive to say, good or bad I want to hear it. Thanks for all input. This is giving me plenty to think about.

The clarity and lighting on the handle are perfect. The blade looks a bit too bright. I think the background (tabletop?) is so-so for a picture and, for me, puts it in the class of a carpet shot:) I don't think you have the software, but I would have photoshopped out the shadow in front of the handle.

For me personally, the knife is just about perfect but the setting makes it look like you shot it on your dining room table.

Richard,

I'm having a hard time tearing that image up. I mean, I would have to nitpick it to death to come up with a technical reason why it might not win. Really ...

However, I'm in total agreement with Phil and Ghost on this ...
It's not that the image is techically unfit, it's not. But, it's not talking to my soul, or something. When I look at it, I think "great pic". Then, I think ... "next"!

What you're looking for in this contest, beyond the technical side, which must be sufficient, is to get the viewer to stop and say, "wow ... now that's a good shot." They won't say it if it looks like the last one they saw, or just because you used some generated backgrounds on it. They will only say it if it grabs their attention in a way that I can't define. Call it the 7th. sense or something. But, it has to rise above the "knife on a table" effect and reach deeper into the spirit of the viewer.

Now, having fumbled all over the place in trying to define something here. Let me say, when you hit it, you'll know ... so will everyone else!

I'm trying all sorts of stuff myself each week. How can I speak about what it is when I can't seem to find it myself? Look at Fred Carter's week 15 ... that was a really cool shot, just plain old black and white. That shot was a museum piece ... However, I didn't vote for it. Why, it "weirded me out!" I liked it and all ... it was gorgeous, but it freaked me out for some reason. I'll bet Fred himself knew that when he saw what he'd made. But, like my own last week, he stuck it in there to see what happened ... you just can't second guess the voters.

That's why I say there are certain elements that we can't define that make us vote one way or the other. I would just say, keep pushing the envelope. Look for the magic ... when you find it, they'll come! So will I!

Alex

Alex and dogman, that is exactly what I was looking for. Honest opinion while at the same time offering ways to consider correction. Honestly saying that the tech side is good, but the pic is boring and dull and telling me why it is that way really is a big help. That really lets me know what I should think about and what makes people want to take that second look.

dog, thanks much for your post. Just a couple of points about that pic. You are correct that the blade looks pretty bright. The knife actually does have a rather bright look to it in person. The finish is very fine and very even. I have shot that knife many different ways and the blade comes out as a white, flat blade shape. The grinds on it are very graceful, what I mean is that they start out quite gradual, the are not square and sudden. That probably doesnt make much sense, but I dont know the proper terminology so it doesnt sound right. Anyways its difficult to photograph as the grind lines simply do not show up. The contrast in finish and all grind lines were added by me with software.

The tang of the knife was really off color in reflecting the background. I also heavily altered it to do away with any reflection.

The "Cooper" logo is in that location. However the blade finish being as bright as it is and the logo being a bit smaller it doesnt show up at all (at least with digital) so it was also added with software.

Actually dog, I do have photoshop. I have messed with it a little bit but just cant seem to get the hang of it so I still use photodeluxe alot. I do have 2 versions of that shot...the one I posted, and one that did away with the shadow as you suggested....I chose the shadow :)

Anyways that was just in case anybody was interested in the technical aspects of the shot.

Alex, thanks man thats the type of thing I was looking for. I suppose I have some trouble with the imaginative side of things. I have always been more oriented towards the mechanical side than anything else. I have tried many times to "set-up" shots, but the problem is that they "look set-up".

I see some nice shots with props and all that look fine. I have even tried to duplicate the set-up for learning and it just doesnt work.

I have a photo I finished, but may still do a bit of touch up on and then I will post it here. Hopefully working with that pic I can get some feedback here on what everybody may look at or what they would have done different until that particular pic is something that would be nice looking.

Thanks again everybody, this thread actually turned into more help than I would have imagined.

Rich, I think that pic is a fine Product Shot, it's a little washed out, but a good shot.

I think I've figured out your problem, let me try to explain. There's a book that I've reccomended for years to people who want to learn to draw, it's called "Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain". The reason I mention this is that the brain has two sides, the left is the analytical side and the right is the creative side. All of your shots are left brain, meaning they are too thought out. How do you devolope the Right Side? First you need to be comfortable and confident in your tools, where you can use them without thinking about them, like riding a bike. Second you need an inner vision of what about your subject gets you excited, what moves you? You're lucky beacuse you only need to photograph subjects that you want. I've told many new photographers that if you look through your viewfinder and don't say, Wow! than you probably don't have a Wow shot, and you may as well save your film. I'm sure there are other pics of knives that make you say "Wow" you've got to take the time and study those pics and find out what is it about those pics that get you excited? Start a Swipe File of pics that inspire you and force you to study them. When you take pics of your next subject try to bring all the elements of what you've learned into your photograph. That's what will seperate your good product shots into Art. Nine out of ten of the guys that enter here can take a good product shot, some can create Art. Fred Carter is one of those people. I doubt Fred has to take much time thinking about his pics, for him it's all Right Brain and it shows in his work. How did he get there? First of all he's an Artist on several levels, second his subject inspires him, third he knows his tools and fourth I doubt he'd enter a shot that didn't make him say, "Wow!" All this didn't happen overnight for him or will it for you. A good eye helps, butt it's nothing that can't be learned, digested and applied, it just takes time.

The first book I read on Photography said, "Take 1000 pictures before you show anyone else". This was the best advice I ever got. If you were to set yourself that goal 1000 pictures, and if you didn't snap the shutter until you said "Wow", can you imagine what the top 20 would look like? If you're not willing to pay the price to be great than just hope you get lucky.

I don't want to be rude but I havent won yet but I will keep puting what I think is good.
I listen to the critiques and try to see if I can understand what is said.
But don't worry just take your picture and injoy it, all my picture are winners in my eyes.
and I like some of the others in fact I have voted for some daft a! not to vote for your own picture.
No if you think it is better then you should vote for it it is only right and proper.
But friends and mates comrades if you could see your way clear to vote for me next time I would be most grateful
the thing that I want to moan about is just when I think I have won this one.

fred or someone else puts a winner in. Drat back to the view finder.
Alan.

Richard,
Your week 16 pic was outstanding. Keep up the good work man, your time in the sun will come.
Mike

You guys are probably going to blast me for this but I don't care. In your heart of hearts you know I'm right.

If you don't have a 'feeling' for the knife in the shot, it will suffer! That cactus knife hadn't been out of the package for more than 30 minutes when I came up with the ideal shot for it. I love that knife! See what I mean?

Anyone can throw a knife on some creative backgrounds and even arrange it carefully (even with software) so it looks good. But, if you don't 'really like' the knife, it will be a dud. You can tell that Rich is passionate about that Cooper knife. He loves it! That makes it a winner. Who cares what anybody else thinks? You do your best and take your medicine. That's what makes the whole thing fun! If you don't win, you try again! And when you do win, it just makes you try harder!!! That's what makes this contest really fun. I just love this :)

I know I'm a nut, but you guys seem to need a whipping post boy. Here I am. Deal with it.

By the way, thanks ghostdog. You're the kind of friend that means the most to me.

Max, we were going to whip you last week, but you took too long shining that trophy ... :lol:

Alex

Max,
I am not here to argue, but I didn't particularly care for the knife in your winning picture or the the one in Rade's picture, but I voted for both of them. There has to be something about a pic that reaches out to me for me to vote on in. I am by no means an expert on photography, but I know what I like when I see it even if I can't put my finger on what it is that makes an impression on me.
just my 2c.
Mike
Let me rephrase that statement. It is not that I didn't like either knife , both were very nicely done and I don't me to cut down anyones work, it is just that neither of them are the kind that I favor. I really misunderstood Max's previous post. I should have read it more closely before I made this post. i interpeted it to mean that if the person looking at the picture didn't really like the knife in the picture then the picture would suffer in the voting. after rereading it closely I see that Max was stating that if the person taking the picture didn't really like the knife then the picture would suffer. I totally agree with what he says, My personal photography skills really suck so I have not entered anything in the contest and probably won't, but I do enjoy looking at all of the pictures posted.
Maybe in time I will learn enough here to help myself become a better photographer.
If I offended anyone with my earlier statement them I truly and sincerely apologize.
Mike

Thanks Mike. No arguing here. I usually vote for the same reasons as you. The pic just reaches out and touches me. By the time I've looked at all of the pics two or three times, there will always be one of them that I remember out of all of them. That's the one I pick. No fussing around for me. I just know from my first impression of it.

I'm no pro photographer either. Far from it. My pic composing skills come from the same brain that told me to drive from Grand Forks, North Dakota to Paris, Arkansas non-stop yesterday. Where does that come from? 1,036 miles with only 5 ten minute gas and restroom stops. You ever do something stupid like that? I guess I did that because I hate to travel on the highways and wanted to get it over as soon as possible. Taking pics is different though. Pure imagination and creativity. If you want to know my opinion I don't see that there's any skill involved at all. Just alot of lucky coincidinces that you happen to effect and catch in a frozen instant by mere chance. How else could it work? :) Or maybe I should qualify that by saying that's how it works out for me. I hate fire fights :) :) :)

I think a good point was raised that you really need to like the knife to help do a good photo of it. If a good idea pops in to your head right off the bat, then you have the feel for the knife. However, you also need some imagination. My problem still is that I honestly have almost no artistic ability. I really do like my knives, and I do enjoy photographing them very much. I feel I have decent technical skills for it, but again, without an artistic inclination it doesnt do much good. I have had a few pics turn out good overall....but the artsy side for me is mostly luck.

I dont know if I can "learn" to create a photo that has clarity and art in it. I have studied and tried, but I can hardly pick out my own clothes to match much less find things to "compliment" a knife. :)

I do get amazed at the things some folks come up with almost with no effort at all....they are just naturals. I mean, look at Tim Hermans web site. There is a picture of one of his knives on a head of lettice (ya, like you make a salad with). Who in their right mind would think of that, but somehow that pic "works" really well. Also, take other people who do pics with flowers or sticks in them, some of them really focus on the knife and the background looks like it was just naturally that way. Even when I try to duplicate their pics the sticks or flowers look like I put them there. Im sure there is a solution to my dilema out there, guess I will just have to keep looking.

R Todd, you have just said it quite well. Trust me here, you DO have artistic ability...you would not recognize it if you didn't. Your week 16 photo was the one I voted for, why, because it had appeal, it told a story. The passing of time, the timelessness of the knife, the classic beauty. And more then me voted for it.

Basically a knife is a tool, it is meant to be used, it fulfills a role. Even an art knife such as Tim Hermans. That is why the lettuce works with the knife.

In my opinion, most knife pictures are just pictures of a knife placed on a background. Why? What is the point? What is this knife for? Alex said it well when he talked about the turd on the table. Good light, good lens, steady camera and you have a technically good shot. Whoopee.

You notice how Fred Carter uses back grounds and props. He invariably gets an emotional respose from me. His knives are not turds on the table, but sometimes his symbolism is beyond me. Even so, his photos talk.

You like knives, you like photography, you do have artistic ability whether you believe me or not, you just gotta use your technical abilities to portray your emotions. My suggestion is do not try to emulate others, get your feelings onto film.

Personally I think there is alot not being done in the contest at hand to portray knives. I feel the same way about the magazine ads I have looked at.

Well I could rant here abit more but will refrain, after one more comment. Do not concentrate on your weaknesses, or perceived weaknesses, work with your strengths.

ghostdog

Richard, Im no pro so I dont feel qualified to tell people how to do there photos. I wish I were. I do know what I like and that is the way I vote. I have voted for one of your photos over my own because I thought it was a great shot. Most of us are not pros so we vote for what we like and not necesserly what is best. no bull#### your photoss are as good as any one on the contest. The focus, clearity, contrast is all first rate. It would be very difficult to improve on any area of your technical skills. What you need to do now is make poeple like the photo and the knife. I for one like your photos and look forward to seeing each entry

You guys are really lucky, you get to pick your subject. You can study it as long as you want and snap photos until you find one you like. That's a lot different than a professional photographer that has to take a great shot even if the subject doesn't turn him on. Of course professional photographers can choose what field they work in. I did Fashion Photography for many years and never wanted to do Portraits for the simple reason I didn't want to have to look at any ugly person that was willing to pay me. ;)

I thought the goal of this forum was to help folks take better pictures of their knives? There has been a lot of improvemnet here. Every week it gets tougher to vote and tougher to win. The bar has been raised several notches. Now you're all starting to focus on the finer points. Some have more natural artistic ability than others, some just have better taste, sorry, but it's true. Both of these attributes can be acquired by opening your mind and stop trying to force it.

I'm sorrry to burst anyones bubble here, but Fred Carter is head and shoulders above the pack. I got an E-mail from Fred the other day and he admitted he doesn't take a lot of time to photograph his knives, but he does take a lot of time thinking about them. Guess what? It shows. Also in his favor is that he has been taking photgraphs for over 30 years. He learned photography to help his knife business. What a great idea. What makes you guys think that you're going to be able to get the same reults in 30 days or after you've taken 30 pics? Sorry it doesn't work like that, you gotta pay your dues. Max is right a lot of great photgraphs are just accidents, but most of you now are trying to MAKE great photos and not just snap lucky pics. I know Max didn't depend on getting lucky to make a great knife, he learned all he could from the best he could find and then he worked hard at it. Wow, what a concept!

The way I see it is none of you are in competition with anyone else here but yourself. If your not learning something from every pic you take then the ball game is over. If you think it's just a matter of luck, so be it. If you think you can't get any better you're probably right.