Maybe it's me, but when I refer to my projects, I think of them as a little more than just a 'kit'. For me, I think that the term 'kit' infers premade parts that simply need a little fitting, finishing and assembly. Badabing-badabang, it's done. ;) And in many cases, this is true. One can take them to whatever level you wish, or keep it simple.

I was actually toying with the idea of a 'mark' on the knives I have been finishing, and expect to do. I've got more of these great knives in front of me still....

So the thought occurred to me: If it's not *just* a kit, then what is it?

No, it's not a 'Handmade' knife--the components (the REALLY hard stuff) has all been pre-made.

No, it's not really a 'Custom'--even though conceivably it might be with special designs and materials suited for a customer. This term is already under fire in the industry for it's widespread usage, and to use this term is like running through a minefield with snowshoes on.... :D I don't want to p***-off any more knifemakers than I usually do..... ;)

I thought of the term 'Hand-finished'. Now THIS sounds more like it. And I must confess that I haven't heard the term before, but I can't be the originator of it.

Are ALL kit knives hand-finished? Are all hand-finished knives kits?

Just thought I'd toss a little food-for-thought out there. Comments?

Coop

Coop, I think the right term for this process is customization.

You are taking stock parts and modifying them to your own preferences. So you wind up with a customized knife, no?

Considering the time, and sometimes the significant changes I've made to some kit knives, its difficult to not think of them as handmade.
However, I think that it's only appropriate to refer to a knife as handmade, custom, or equivalent is when you actually grind or forge the blade to shape by hand.
For the kit folders which I've assembled and sold, I've presented them as based upon Darrel Ralph kit components and haven't added my name or logo.
For the few made to date with my own blades, damascus replacements which I ground out myself, I've added my own identification mark.
To my surprise, I have had a few customers ask that I mark the bolsters or scales, but that still doesn't feel quite right. Don's suggestion of "customized" does sound very appropriate, but "customized by XXX" is a bit lengthy to etch or stamp.
Any other thoughts ?

This reminds me of a long-running thread in another forum as to whether knifemakers make art or craft.

When I showed off my first couple of completed "kits" I felt compelled to explain all or part of the process. As soon as I said " It's from a kit" I felt cheated if I didn't go into a lengthy description of just how much work can go into these kits (if you choose to take them that far as many of us have).

My last couple of knives involved significant redesign of the blades..a bit of "stock removal" one might say. One blade had some file work. They have handles that I created from scratch...I selected areas from a large piece of cocobolo wood I had puchased from an area woodworking specialty store, cut them to size, shaped them, and added finishing touches of my own with carved-out thumb indents.

Yesterday I found myself in the tool department at one of the nearby Home Depot stores (seems I'm there a lot lately), showing the two new knives (which just happen to always be in my pocket) to the Department Manager. To say he was "blown away" is an understatement! I had absolutely no problem saying to him:
"I made them!" There, just as simple as that. No remorse, no guilt feelings. No involved explanation. I knew how much time and original thought and work had gone into these knives and I was suddenly comfortable with the expression.

Without any prompting, he asked me how much I charged. I hesitated for a moment (I hadn't started down that road yet) and said "something like these would run about $300." He excitedly said that he wanted to buy one but would have to save up for a week or so and could he have my phone number. He then added
"If I supplied the material for the handle, could you still make the knife?" I replied casually "depends on the material but that shouldn't be a problem. I can customize it any way you want".

Nowhere in all of this did we get into a discussion of kits vs custom, nor did I feel it required. He had admired my workmanship, and we all know from our own "learning curves" that even though these might begin as "kits", they don't have to end that way.

I have every intention of finding a local engraver and having my initials put on the blades (until I learn to do it myself). I put a lot of sweat and heart into these knives and want people to know I made them.

I might along the way say that they're handmade, or hand-finished, or customized. There are a heck of a lot of "custom knives" out there with much less of a pedigree. Those wonderful, often very talented guys who truly make their knives from scratch, know who they are and they've earned their own type of bragging rights. As for me, I won't have any problem sleeping at night when I talk about the latest knife I made.

Dennis

PS. Wish me luck on the prospective sale. I have to start offsetting the cost of this "hobby" (is passion a better word?) with an occasional sale at least, or my (actually very understanding) wife may sue for divorce!

I think the term "semi-custom" is the best I've ever heard. It seems to define exactly what this process derives in the end.

It's more than a "customized" or "modified" production knife and does not infer that you're representing it as a pure custom knife that you've created every screw, ball bearing, pivot, beat or ground the steel from scratch and so forth. I don't want to open the tired old debate about custom definitions, because everyone that knows me, knows that I personally think a "true" custom would include handmade screws, basically everything in the piece in it's literal definition... and most people want to allow some production manufactured items within "their" personal "custom" definitions, like screws, for instance. I always get mad at some point because I think their liberal definitions always include what "they" use (production wise) in the term, but seems to exclude someone else for the use of a different manufactured part in the build. There's some room for flexibility within me personally, but I'm the type that does not care who made the paint, the canvas or the brush. I feel that the moment the artist touches the canvas with the wet brush, the result is their creation, so they should be able to sign it. But, that's me ... I'm not looking to buy canvas and paint, I'm buying art!

Perhaps an additional "SC" in the mark would be a nice convention to start up. This is a serious topic, because we're creating something that is "sellable" and the quality of the finished work by some is very, very nice. This is a facet of the market for makers who don't have $15,000 dollars worth of specialized equipment, or a designated space to work, 10 years of metallurgy and so forth. This is a facet of the industry where a guy like "Jim Cooper" can build a knife in the corner of his garage and be judged against "you" (the great knife maker) on his "creativity" and "artistic impression", but not so much for his "manufacturing" tools and knowledge.

Actually, I can open a whole line of questions on this subject that defines where my problems with this question resides ...

What is a "Custom Knife Maker"?
Is that a person who takes something that "isn't" a knife and turns it into something that "is" a knife, making it unlike any other in existence, therefore "custom"?

Regardless of what your personal position is, or who you think you are in the industry, this is what I predict will happen, regarding what we make and sell under the KnifeKits.com banner ... also regarding the component quality of what we bring to the end product that our makers build ... these are good knives!
One of these days, there will be a resell market that exists where a personally crafted and signed kit folder made and artistically embellished by a Jim Cooper, for instance, will have more intrinsic value that one made by say, an Alex Whetsell. Like the "Mad Striper" effect on the Custom Motorcycle market, the name designer effect will happen here too!

I say "sign your work" ... but don't tell people that you made the steel and screws and so forth. If you want to put an "SC" on the blade for "Semi-Custom", something like that would be professional courtesy, to both the buyers and the dealers that might not see the core kit beneath the surface, once you're done doing you magic ... like some of the extreme mods I've seen, for example!

(addendum) ...
If a guy like "Bob Loveless" was just starting out today, playing around with making knives, he'd probably be a candidate for someone who wanted to try a few kits to learn the ropes to get started going. How would you like to be the man who ended up with an early kit that was made by the beginning "Loveless", but it was unsigned in any way, marking it for what it was?

In 50 years, these are still going to be #### good knives ... they're not going to fall apart like any great makers custom work, may last longer in some cases, so mark them and be proud! I will!

Alex

Excellent points, Alex & Dennis.
I've followed some of the ongoing arguments within the Knifemakers' Guild on this subject, and personally felt that for a knife to be called "custom" or "handmade" the blade should have been forged and/or ground by the maker. In part, this conclusion resulted from my own experiences of grinding out blades freehand, and find that aspect to be the most difficult part of making knives, and the most difficult skill to acquire - that's not to suggest that the rest of the work is simple or easy, but only that I've had the most difficulty getting it right on my grinder, particularly with small folder blades.
From a few friends who are full time makers, I know that some are useing pre-cut blanks, computerized disc grinders, and other sophisticated methods to produce blades - perhaps without even touching the blades until ready for assembly. These methods certainly don't reduce the functional effectiveness of the finished knives. They may simply reduce the secondary market values to semi-production "benchmade" levels vs. one of a kind knives.
Based upon your comments, I am rethinking my position on marking kit based knives. All of my customers to date know
accurately what they have purchased - customized folders based upon Darrel Ralph designs and supplied blades and some components. If paying customers prefer that the knives be marked with the customizer's name, that's probably sufficient justification - again, as long as they know what they purchased.
Dennis-Congratulations on that pending sale! Nothing more complimentary than someone willing to part with their $$$ for one of your creations.
Kelly

When talking to someone about the knives I've been using terms like a "customized (insert kit name)" so that people know that it is not the blade that is custom, but the handle. When people ask about my hobby I normally say (for now anyways, til I get into grinding blades) that I am assembling or customizing knives. I try to give the designer of the kit their due.

Would it be much different if your grinding were based of a Loveless design? I have plans to grind my first knife based a design that was on the Engnath page. I want to put my stamp on it, but it is still not my design/custom work. Where do you give the credit due to the orginial designer? Verbally? With a stamp?

Drac

Drac, there is nothing wrong with saying, "this is a Loveless style hunter." If you made it, put your mark on it. Steve Johnson gives loveless credit when he makes a knife of Bob's design. Bob Doggett gives Steve Johnson credit when he makes a knife of Steve's design.

One of my many thrills in knifemaking was having Paul Basch walk past my table, do a double take, and come back, pointing to a knife that I made. He said, "Is that what I think it is?" He thought it was in fact a loveless knife. Very gratifying.

Since my post of last night I've had a all day to think more on this subject (I've been busy working all day and yet couldn't get this out of my mind).

In another forum I spoke at length about my past career as representative for some leading graphic design firms (yeah Cajun Bones, you read it right!). We were talking in the forum about how to price knives. I commented that whenever I was asked by potential graphic design customers "how long did that take?", I would always reply (knowing the designer in question): "22 years"!

So I got to thinking today about the knifemakers who have spent many years of their life learning the trade and all it's nuances. Wouldn't I offer up a similar response on their behalf if representing them? Seems to me that these are guys who are making a living at this and deserve to have a way for that dedication to their craft be known.

Having said that I'm not taking away from my new-found dedication to making knives from these kits...who knows where it will lead? I don't have 20 years of metallurgy under my belt like a lot of the "pros" but I do, in a way, apply a lifetime of my own experience as I'm working these knives. So what do we call them?...that's still the question. Alex' idea of "semi-custom" mostly worked for me until I started thinking about my "William-Henry" knives.

I'm quite friendly with the managers at a number of the area's leading knife store chain. Many times I've observed them describe the William-Henry line to customers as "semi-custom", the idea being that they were production knives that were partly hand-worked. That may be, but the hand-worked aspect is still with big production in mind. If anything they make a point of not personalizing each knife, their thing being consistency of quality in numbers. Likewise with Chris Reeves.

With the kind of "heart" I put into each one of my knives do I deserve something more than the "semi-custom" monicker seemingly assigned to these guys (their great knives notwithstanding)? Of course I'm not suggesting that my knives are better or worse than these, but the process is certainly different.

I know I haven't answered Coop's question yet in this post, but maybe that is the point. Much like the "art vs. craft" post in another forum, why do we have to worry about the labels? Most of the time, when someone is buying a knife that has been made from scratch, they're aware of exactly what their buying, if for no other reason than the cost. Years later, long after that custom knife was made and sold, is it still revered because some makers name is on the blade? Heck, I've got some great production knives with engraved names, that most people wouldn't know from custom. (One fairly expensive, limited edition, numbered Shrade/Barnett is a piece of crap as far as I'm concerned!). In most cases the reverance would be on account of the knife's appearance, feel, and maker's reputation, and not because, when it was handed over to the customer that day, it was described as "custom".

If in the course of making a kit knife, I impose enough of "Dennis" to feel comfortable in calling it by some name other than "knifekit", will that alter the way in which that knife is thought of years from now? I know how I'll feel about the ones I keep, and my customers (if I get any) will be pleased to know that a nice knife was made for them by some guy who's initials (on the blade) are "DG".

Dennis

My head is spinning! ;)

As it is with any good thread, the topic changes slightly and grows on its own.

Don offer's the term 'Customized'. Not my favorite, but it's legit. Yup, it is a 'customized' knife. But *my* perception of a customized knife is more like, say, Frank Recupero's wonderfully embellished Spyderco's and Benchmade's. Knifes that were complete and then redone with embelishments. Customized to a new level.

Then there is 'Semi-Custom', which as Dennis has pointed out, is a term used on W/H and CRK knives. Aptly so, I think. They are a great product.

And I offered the term 'Hand-finished'. Still my favorite, but as it was said the label thing is not that important. What IS important is what was said concerning these and ANY knifemaker's knives: Full disclosure of what the ingredients are. In a word--honesty. No one will contest you if the knife is billed accordingly. And, yes, there is 'soul' in these knives whether I ground the blade or not..... I'd like to include a 'COOP -- Hand-finished' or 'COOP - S/C' mark someday.

I'd like to think there will be a market for these finished knives, now and in the future. Dennis, I wish you great things marketing yourself and making a sale! I had an offer for a knife from a respected KnifeNut after my first stag version, and when I made up the Carbon knife to the spec's of the interested fellow, he wasn't AS interested in the knife after asking $275.00 for it. No problem--I kept it!

For resale, I think there is a perception obstacle. I do think we will be losing ground to true Custom makers whose knives are entirely handmade and the prices are under $500. I am not going to let that bother me. Right now, I'm on a learning curve and wish to continue...

Coop

Very interesting thread here guys, I like to read everything. I haven't made one of these kits yet but with what everything your saying I think there is a term that might work. CUSTOM KITS or CK or C/K.

Just something to think about.

Mike

1. I'll never forget ordering my 1st "custom" knife. It was in (about) 1982 and I had sent a letter explaining exactly what model I wanted, and I added "please make the false edge go halfway up the blade". The reply I got was "on my model 1, the false edge only goes 1/4 up the blade back". Now this maker made everything from hand, starting with a big old hunk of metal, and hand forging the blade. However, in my humble opinion, this knife wasn't "custom" it was handmade. A "CUSTOM" knife would have been made to my specifications. Webster's says "Custom adj. 1. Made to order.

2. I love the fact that these kits are of a high enough quality that they engender the passion that makes the finish product worth $200 - $300 - $400 and up. Also, please remember that every kit sold by KnifeKits comes with exclusive license to customize the kits however you wish, and resell that kit.

My vote goes for "customized". Often used in the car and motorcycle industries, BRAND NEW in the knife industry!

We are breaking ground together, grab a shovel, and welcome to the revolution!

Jerry Hennelly
National Sales manager
KnifeKits
Hennelly@knifekits.com

Interesting thread which could probably go on forever -
We probably ordered the same modifications from the same maker in 1982, Jerry. Interestingly, I finally did receive what I had requested last year, along with two other knives ordered in the mid-80's (of course, the price went up considerably over close to 20 years).
"Customized" is an accurate description of making the kits.
I've had several custom motorcycles over the years, and, when asked who built it, I would always refer to the customizer - not Harley-Davidson. For a few, there weren't many Harley parts left after customization was completed.
"Customized" is certainly an accurate description of the work done on the kits.
My question/issue on this subject is the marking of the knife with one's name or logo - and that's assuming that an accurate description of the basis is made available to the customer.
If I replace a blade with one of my own, I definitely feel comfortable putting my name on it. On the other hand, if I simply assemble the kit with the addition of scales, I don't. The middle area is likely where most of us fall - custom filing, polishing, sanding, reshaping the frame and/or blade, replacing bolsters with mokume or damascus, etc.,
No final answer - quite subjective and dependent upon how much customization we feel we have provided. For the middle area referenced above, I'll probably find a way to mark the frame, scales or bolsters, but not the blade, if left as originally furnished.

osprey guy, if you have a engraver work your blades..you
should remind him before he lays a graver to it that the
blade is hardened steel.. otherwise.. he may ruin the tip
of a good graver and be a little upset... if i can offer you an
alternative tip.. try sending your blades for laserengraving..
its a professional look and it costs little .... jlott

JLOTT-
Thanks for the (timely) suggestion. I was planning on checking out a local engraver this week. Do you think that laser engraving is a service found in most major cities (I live in Baltimore) or do I have to send it to one of a few specialists? If the latter can you recommend someone.
Dennis

Mick Koval recently sent me two of the kits designed by Darrel. I found them to be exceptionally fine designs and very easy to "assemble." The only work involved in these projects was the finishing of the scales. Having finished dozens of kits in the past 15 years or so, that's what I feel I did: I finished a kit knife. I did not design, make and finish a custom or hand made knife. I've seen Coop's customizing of these knives, and his work appears flawless. I personally feel he "customized" these kits. If he bought a current day Loveless knife and embellished it with engraving, file work or even new scales, his efforts would again be that of "customizing," IMHO.

Yet, Darrel (a friend of mine, and one who taught me a thing or two at a recent ABS class in Arkansas) can be quoted on this site as stating: "To learn how to MAKE knives like the pros," and "Learn how to MAKE knives...." Assembling a knife from ready made parts is NOT making a knife. It is assembling a knife.

Like Harley bikes that can be "customized," I built many a street rod and hot engines over the year. These projects were "customized" by yours truly. I didn't grind the Isky cam, make the Harmon & Collins mag, make the Weber flywheel, etc. I customized the engine, etc.

Re: these kit knives, they are great learning tools, and they certainly can be customized. Bud

Glad to see you here, Bud! :)