With the recent events, it looks like there may be a great demand for highest quality combat blades. I would like input from soldiers on what they would like to see in a combat blade. I am not talking fighters here, but multi tasked blades that can be used for everything. What do you demand and expect from this type of high performance blade?

Good question, Rob, and an important distinction. I make fighters, not combat knives. Combat knives must do more than fighters, which are designed for fighting only and not digging a foxhole or sawing through a wall if necessary.

Hopefully one of your blades will know the sweet taste of revenge...

I would very much hear from soldiers too!...We need to make some hardcore combat knives soon!

Cheesy ... but I have a name that comes to mind ... a mark.

AT Series (Anti-Terrorist)


Rob, I spoke to Darrel Ralph today and he told me about your plan to prioritize your orders to military clients ... that's an excellent idea. I wish you would open this idea to all makers ...

Alex

Rob,

How about an airman's input? :) I believe in using the best available tool for the task at hand. Often times, that doesn't include a knife. For digging, use an entrenching tool. For sawing, a folding saw. For general duties, I have found a multitool to be invaluable. These items are all easily carried and are typically issued in the field. So, if I were to select a particular knife type, it would be an all-purpose small drop point. I would chose one of the stainless steels for ease of maintenance, in particular one that is easily sharpened. The preceding is, of course, my opinion only.

Brett

I am a former Marine and we were all isued the Kabar. The only problems I have found with it were an uncomfterble gard and the tendancy to break in the handle section.

I would like to see something with a spear or clip point, 7-9" blade, 1/4"-3/16" thick at ricaso with good distal taper, convex ground and a diferentialy hardened L-6 blade with a nonreflective coating such as titanium nitride or parkeraized, a narrow tange with full steel gard and screwed on flat steel pomel cap, for use as hammer, with canvas based mycarta grip with ether heavy sand blasting or light checkering. On a normal use knife I perfer a smooth grip to avoid blisters, on a combat knife however, better a few blisters than slipery grip!

The sheath should be heavy waxed harness leather with multiple eyelets so that it can be attacted to the combat harness and a good quality retaining strap and snap are a must as most are hung upside down. Kydex would be even better except that I have been in some places where I have seen it hit 150 deg. F. in the shade and would wory about it deforming.

As for ease of mantainace, I will personly garontee that personal equipment used by our armed forces will be well maintaned, whether it needs it or not.

This is just my thoughts on my experainces and know some people who would disagree, but if I was still active, this is what I would cary.

This is exactly the stuff I want to hear! Keep it comming guys. I also believe in using the right tool for the job, but sometimes that is not possible. How about busting bands and prying open crates? I have been making a few knives with band breakers on them, basically a sharpened area on the back of the blade. Works ok, and doubles as an edge that can be abused if you have to. I know soldiers can be very hard on gear and at the same time as mentioned the gear is well maintained. Here is a link to the picture of the knife I mentioned. http://tripleaughtdesign.com/images/rstantopro.jpg

William, I am curious why you chose differentially tempered L6 steel?

L-6 is not my favorite steel, but is a close second. L-6 will hold an excelent edge, can be easly sharpened in the field and with a hard edge portion and springy back is virtualy indistructable.

One test blade I made nearly worked me to death trying to break it. After bending 90 deg. back and forth many times it finaly gave up.

In the field a bent knife is better than a broken knife and can be straightened. My experiance with stainless steel is that when it is hard enough to hold an edge it is prone to breaking. You could make it thicker, but you add weight, You could make it softer, but you lose cutting ability. As for corrosion resitance, you want a combat knife to be non-reflective, a good coating will protect from rust, not that I've ever seen much rust on military hardware.

As for straping on crates, I often carried a leatherman tool and also a pocket knife for delicate work.

IMHO any good carbon alloy steel will make a good combat knife if properly heat treated and designed simply because carbon steel can have a hard edge and soft back and tange. L-6 is simply the toughest steel I have ever seen.

I don't have any experaince with the laminated blade steels, but a stainless San Mai might work also to give good flexibility and a corosion resistant blade.

Good points.

Let me put to rest one myth though. Stainless knives are only inferior if not made properly. In independent tests, I've had an ATS-34 blade breeze through tests that broke or bent 5160, A2 and blades made with some other steels. In fact it has remained the tester's benchmark blade to which he compares all blades, and has passed all the tests along side all the blades he has ever tested. I also have one of Rob's blades in ATS-34 that I would happily take anywhere to do anything.

I've personally never seen a well constructed knife made with ANY steel break in anything approaching normal use. I've seen edges chip, but not a blade break, except when done intentionally. I have seen lesser knives made with stick tangs, similar to the Kabar, fail at the guard. That's one reason I use only full tangs. Let me quickly say though, I've never seen a well made stick tang knife break like that.

If you're not going to use a knife for prying, the only thing that really matters is the edge.

I use a lot of CPM-3V (not stainless, but extremely tough with excellent wear resistance) in anticipation that someone may want to use a knife for rough purposes I can't even imagine, and they are. I'm amazed at some of the things people do with knives. It's one drawback is that it does rust, and in tropical or coastal environments that sucks. Salt or brackish water will rust even stainless in less than 24 hours if the blade is not protected or cleaned, and the very first thing to rust is the most vulnerable spot, the edge. Once the edge rusts a little, it goes dull almost with the first cut.

Here's what I see is the BIG problem with hard use field blades. You're just not always going to have the right tool for the right job. Crowbars, saws, and even entrenching tools are never, seldom or not always with you. You have to anticipate a knife will be asked to do everything from cutting food to chopping through moderately hard materials to digging to heavy prying to wet work in which you might encounter even hardened steel. Edge abuse is certainly to be expected, so how do you make that edge tolerant of hard impacts and prying pressures and at the same time have it very easy to sharpen? How do you deal with environmental issues without more routine maintenance than you might have the luxury of providing? How do you make a knife easy to wield and robust all at the same time.

I see Rob's quest as the holy grail of knifemaking. How can you make a knife that satisfies everyone's wish list?

Obviously the answer is a custom knife, but that necessarily translates into very high costs. It's certainly not something that you can put into production to serve large numbers of combatants. IF you look carefully at Rob's design, it has a whole lot going on in a single knife that can do a whole lot of things.

Hi guys,
first off I am not in the military.

I found this topic very interesting. The distinction between a fighter and a combat knife I understand. A combat knife is used for a all around knife and a fighter is a specific purpose. When I think of a fighter I think of something that has a totally different balance and feel than that of a combat knife. Should the combat be more geared to chopping and prying with a heavier blade feel. Something also light enough to be quick in the hand for defense use? Am I all wet in this regard? When I am checking a knife for the balance I can almost feel a pivot point in which the handle and tip are exchanged/rotated with the wrist. I am not a knife fighter but what is the perfect compromise for balance in a combat blade.

Is the Holy Grail the perfect cross of a fighter and combat knife then applying the steel suited to the design?

Something said earlier was the ability to service the edge in the field. That seems very important to me.

Thanks

Actually Jerry, the knife you got from me is 3-V! I am sure you are happy to hear that! ha ha

Jerry and CS Jones brought up some good points.

There are so many variables that if you think about it for a few minutes it makes your head swim!

The Holy Grail, those 3 words scare the hell out of me! :) The Holy Grail for me in unreachable, and if it were ever to be reached I would lock up my shop and go get a job as the fun would be gone! The Holy grail would be weigh under an ounce, never rust, never need sharpening, cut like a laser, never break, chip or bend, etc.

The knife above is only a concept that gives the user a few more choices than say a pure fighter or a hunting knife, and is certainly not the pefect combat knife. Thanks for the comments so far, keep them comming!

3V?

Far Out!!

Now that makes it extra special. Thanks Rob.

The one you got from me is 3V too! :)

Jhossom, first I'd like to state that I never said stainless steel is inferior, with all knives of all steels the heat treat is esential to a good blade.

I've tested ats-34 that was heat and cryo treated and was a good performer, much tougher and easyer to sharpen and held an edge better than a factory blade. However, when put against properly heat treated L-6, 52100, and O-1, it falls short on toughness. That is not to say that it is'nt tough, just not as tough as the carbon steels, again properly heat treated. I will go so far as to say that if I had to chose a stainless knife, I would go for Ats-34 or 154-cm or posibly D-2 since I have heard that it is posible to give it a soft back treatment.

I've never broken a knife of any steel in normal use, but have broken many a blade with extream abuse. When I would break a carbon alloy blade with a diferential heat treat, the edge would crack or chip, but the knife would remain whole. When you get a crack in a stainless knife the crack keeps going and you have two parts of a knife.

As for rusty edges, now that I think about it, my Kaybars never developed rust on the edge, even in salt water and the tropics because I kept it oiled with CLP and shapened it nearly every day, right after cleaning my rifle.

As for Rob's knife, I will have to say that I would have no qualms about carying it in the field. As you said, it has a lot going on.

As to the perfect combat knife, no such animal exist. Each individual has differnt needs and preferances. If one uses a knife withen it's limits, blade steel is not the most important consideration. A perfect example is the titanium SEAL dive knife, It excells at its intended purpass and environment, but does not do so well in other environments, although if used within reason would function well.

When all is said and done, it all comes down to personal preferance and experiance as to blade desighn and construction, what works for one won't neciseraly work for anougther.

Yeah Jerry, I get that 3-V Hunter Killer of yours out about once a week and fondle it too! That be one mean mother without looking like it! :)

I look back to when I was in Nam (69 & 70) and not even being issued a bayonet. I'm not sure if that was because I was in the 4th Inf Div or they didn't make them for the M-16 then. They did have a few machete's which I can still remember we used to cut down small trees (8" - 10" in diameter) for overhead for our bunkers, but most the time they were just used when going out on our walks. Another thing I remember was by the time the army gave you all the stuff they expected you to carry you where in the transition from human to mule and any extra weight was not appreciated. I'm thinking size wise 10 inches max over all would be the biggest blade you'd want. Another thing that comes to mind was money. Back then my take home was $347. a month, thats including the free $50. a month combat pay. I realize GI's get paid much more now but I just can't imagine too many of them wanting to spend their money on a custom made combat knife when there's all that beer out there to drink and ladies to take care of. I'm not to sure what the modern soldier priorities are but I just don't think that part has changed that much.
Just my two cents worth, Ray

Rob,

That knife in the picture sure looks nice - I am sure that I have seen it someplace else?

I love the knife, especially the additional shap area on the top of the blade - as you say, you can use it to cut things without damaging the main edge.The profiled blade also puts the steel where it is needed.

My only downer of the knife is the sheath, this does not hold the knife in place very firmly - I understand why this in on the prototype, but would like to see the knife staying in place without having the strap done up. My ideal in this area is the sheath that comes with the Walter Brend knives - I think they are made by Tactical tools - Les or Walter would know better here.

Once agan, thanks for making a great knife.

Regards,

Ed
Usual Suspect

hey guys, if I may add my two cents. I have been a soldier for the last 12 years and am currently serving with the special forces. I am also a part time knife maker who spends a lot of his time pondering this same question and running it by every other "knife bug" army guy I run into. First things first... soldiers mistreat almost everything! if you can imagine a way to misuse a blade, somewhere somehow, some guy in green has done it... they are very creative people when it comes to wrecking stuff and to answer an earlier thread, NO, airmen don't count! (with the exception of para-rescue and JTACs) other than that... if you don't get dirty, you don't count! In my years I've seen everything from $350 knives broken by guys hitting rocks while chopping roots out of the way to clear a place to sleep, to guys hacking through 10" thick mud walls in afghanistan to make a door.... mis-use, but reality. that being the case, I can give you a rough idea of what they want on the whole but certainly I don't have all the answers. a knife must be hard enough to hold a good edge, but still tough enough to not snap when used as a pry bar when required. It's got to be heavy enough to hack through vegetation and smash glass to gain entry, but light enough that you'll actually carry it... you ALMOST never see anyone actually carrying anything larger than a ka-bar sized blade when they have to go very far. There are exceptions to every rule... there's always one guy with a machete or kukuri strapped to him, but that's the exception not the rule, and usually someone new to the forces, as soldiers use what works and if it doesnt' they stop using it QUICK as there is never enough space on your kit for all the toys, and no room for stuff that gets in the way and of course weight is always an issue with the standard load for basic kit running over 50lbs (bare ass). This is just from what I've seen and it's just a rough overview, but I have learned what works and what to leave out over the years and make every one of my knives with all of the "lessons learned" from everyone I've talked to, and I'd be glad to share it with anyone who has more specific questions. I hope this helps.

Just food for thought, here are my rough specs for my "combat" knife (and why):
spear point (holds up the best)
flat grind with convex edge (toughness)
skull crusher pommel (smashing stuff)
full tang (strenght and stability)
micarta handle slabs.

440c blade (please give me imput on what you think would be better and why???) but 440c holds up well in bad climates, keeps a pretty decent edge and I've never broken one, so I can attest to it's toughness.

hey guys. a point on asking "military" guys what they want in a knife that may help you decide what to use or not to. As stated, I have talked to hundreds, maybe thousands over the years on the topic and have come to the conclusion that most army guys have no more idea of what makes a good knife than anyone else, and a lot of what they say is based solely on the "look cool factor" or as we call it in the buisness, the "LCF" instead of how useful the knife is. The truth is, you as a knife maker or avid hunter/outdoorsman have vastly more experience than most soldiers and by careful thought of how the blade will be used I am convinced you would give them a far better product than they would turn out with their wild imaginations (Col Rex Applegate being one exception). That's why some companies who use the "designed by former navy seal THIS, or the ex SAS that" to give them credibility make such ridiculous products that look more like something darth vader would wield rather than a soldier. I'm not going to name any names per say, but for example, some companies who consult these "experts" make huge blades with saw backs resembling more of a sharpened pry bar than anything anyone would call a knife, but it looks cool (LCF) especially with it's black "non reflective" coating and it's sandpaper covered handle for "grip in wet conditions". Often times, instead of concentrating on blade geometry and handle ergonomics, they use the latest "clever" gadgets built in, like a fire starter in the handle, special cutters built into the back of the blade (to open ammo cans or cut para-cord) with screw drivers and the like milled into the guards and my personal favorite ...THE TANTO POINT, quite possibly the most useless of all points for a survival knife in my personal opinion (I DARE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG) These companies claim that they were designed for use "in the field" when in reality, this stuff is almost always useless gadgetry stuck on to draw attention away from what would make a good blade rather than focus on what the knife's intended purpose (have you ever tried to skin an animal with a Tanto point (I have/not fun) but this is the kind of LCF that draws an inexperienced person to buy such a blade, and to eventually buy another that actually works instead. That being the case, if selling blades to soldiers is your main goal, you do need a little "LCF" as a big part of what makes a soldier buy a blade is how cool it looks compared to the guy,s beside him, so for god's sake don't overlook the details.

Hey dirty d you are calling to a 10 year old post. I know of at least one that will not respond. Just my 2cents -Jim-

An old post - yes. Good thoughts from a great man and comments all relevant today. I enjoyed reading it and appreciate the opportunity to share time with a man I called friend.

hey Gents

sorry I was late to the party on this one... I hadn't read the date on that post, but the topic caught my eye and off I went. speaking of big fans, I have been a huge fan or yours for years Mr. Fowler. you were one of the first makers who's knives I studied when first I picked up a knife magazine.

dirtydancer: Thank you for the compliment.

Some threads are timeless and this is one of them. We were discussing the old USMC Ka-Bars a few days ago and are working on developing a high endurance performance knife. The discussion included the strengths and weaknesses of what are remembered as the issued Ka-Bars although a number or outfits made them.

The weak tangs were evidently due to the possibility that the tangs were fully hardened along with the blades and became the weak point. I remembered a discussion about the later blades being induction tempered and that cured the fault. It was nice to have my memory of those knives confirmed in this thread. Somehow I missed it first time around.

Thanks for bringing it back to life.

There are some old threads with military knives around here. I know that Donnie Halter made a very nice long blade out of 5160 that took care of business (including chopping through an adobe wall and cutting up a goat) and Chris Daigle made a very nice push knife out of O1 that was a particular favorite for taking the hinges off doors. I had Chris make one for a neighbor's kid who went into the Marines. All 3 of these served in Afghanistan.

The main thing about these knives was that they were extremely tough. Most of the commercial knives are built for slicing, but not meant to take the kind of abuse that a knife gets in a combat area.

Isn't that the truth... I have been trying to do some research on this very topic on the ole internet as well as another thread on this sight to find a better stainless steel. A number of my knives have served in afghanistan as well and have seen some severe abuse (my own carry blade included) and one of my friends who had one of mine complimented me recently as the knife I made for him was the only thing he was wearing to survive an IED that destroyed a vehicle he was in... including his rifle and watch! and it's funny you mention the knife hacking through a wall, as I've had the same done to mine. That's the problem I am trying to remedy lately.. or rather improve on. I am looking to find a steel to replace the 440c I am currently using, that is better suited for that kind of abuse. Any suggestions you guys have would be more than welcome... and trust me, they will be thoroughly tested.

dirtydancer: you might consider a differentially hardened carbon steel forged blade. You can easily develop a stout tip that can get you into your work and do all a skull crusher can do without the inconvenience of a sharp point on the handle of your knife.

You can make them as stout as they need to be and with a little practice develop a blade that can easily withstand 70 foot pounds of lateral torque. They take longer to make, but I feel it is worth it. Some folks want stainless, but I believe you can so so much more with a carbon steel knife and it does not take a lot of maintenance to keep them rust free. When I look at my old military knives, some of them over 100 years old, and rust is rarely a problem - unless they have been left laying around for years in the dirt of a battle field or stored forgotten in a basement with grand fathers other stuff without someone to care for them.

If a non reflective blade is wanted you can etch them, and in the field after use, any fruit can be used to reduce reflection.

I have a WWI joke book that was sold to raise funds for the troops. In it is the following joke:

Sergeant: "If your bayonet becomes stuck in the enemy, you can just fire a round and that will free it."
Recruit: "Sarge, if I've still got a round left, that Kraut ain't getting close enough to get stuck!"

The same holds true today; it's pretty rare that combat gets close up and personal enough to use a knife. So skull crushers and such may not be worth much. On the other hand, the knife is going to be used to cut through the bands on an ammo box, or open a can, or chop into a wall, or butcher a goat. A friend in Afgh. told me his knife edge was all messed up after he loaned it to some Afgh. Nat. Army guys to butcher a goat. They don't cut the meat off the bones; they cut up the bones with the meat and cook it all together. Bones are tough on a knife.

With that in mind, steels like 1084, O1, and 5160 ("Old Chevy Spring") become good choices.

A friend was in on of the first landing at Iwo Jima, only two of the men in his outfit survived the battle, he was wounded twice but refused to leave his friends. Celebrated his 92 birthday this summer.

I asked him about bayonets sticking in bodies, he told me that many times it was very up close and personal. Also when walking through what looked like dead enemy they would stick them with a bayonet to make sure. I asked him about bayonets sticking in a person, "it was usually because of the man doing the sticking getting a little excited, especially in hand to hand combat and sticking the bayonet through the body cavity and into the back bone where it could stick, shooting into the body would shatter the bone and free the bayonet. They learned to stick off to one side to avoid the back bone". He also stated that "some of the bayonets had full spines to the tip, they were more prone to stick in bone than blades with a slight false edge."

George Patton had figured that out when he designed the Patton Saber, it is too bad that those with knowledge are not asked when life saving or threatening decisions are made.

I've looked into carbon blades as well as spring steel (from what I gather, the 5160 should take a beating better than almost any steel out there) and that's part of my equation. I have and will make some more knives out of this, but I still have a large market for stainless, as a lot of my guys (myself included) do a fair bit of work in marine environments, so I still have to get a good stainless for those ones. To tell you the truth, up to this point I am really happy with the 440c, and have never had anyone break on of my blades to date, but I just keep reading in all the magazines and articles online that these other steels are so much tougher, so I am just putting it out there for your experiences on the matter. And as far as the skull crusher goes, it's just a name... it's not like the pointy V-42 "skull crusher" you are probably invisioning (trust me, I don't advocate that... it does more harm than good) I simply leave a half inch of my tang exposed out of the rear of the handle and it's ground flat at 90 degrees to the point so the blade can be hammered into things or used as a hammer itself to drive in spikes or smash things. it's a very valuable tool, and I get a lot of positive feedback from it (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED)

One thing I have learned is that all 5160 is not the same, it does not usually have the quality control that is enjoyed by some other steels. If you want some great 5160 you an get it from John Deer in their Load Control Shafts, also called load control pins. The one I have now is about 1 1/4 inch round bar, 21 1/2 inches long, part number is R46513 or 2011303DY on the mailing tube. Every one that I have used has been premium, all the same, no faults and work up very nicely. A new one was $125 last time I checked, used ones can be free or a dozen donuts if you are lucky. John Deer has demanded the quality control for us and provides us with an opportunity that is hard to achieve as it eliminates having to dance around unknown variables.

Thanksss Mr. Fowler. I haven't got the shop set up to get into forging at the moment as I'm only working out of my garage and I just don't have the time ...not to mention the last time I tried forging I knocked out my front tooth when the blade slipped out of the tongs (live and learn... thank god the military has good dental) so the question is: do I get the desired effect out of "stock Removal" of the shafts, or leaf springs, or is forging the only way to get the most out of this steel?

You are most welcome! We will share what we have learned any time anyone asks.

Weld the billet to a bar and you will have great control and never need tongs, I learned the same lesson about 1980.

The rate of reduction by forging at the right temperature allows you to develop in a fine grain structure and uniformity that improves the quality of blades tremendously and provides the freedom to use steel you want to use.

I can say that if you can find a good source for high quality bar stock you can easily develop blades that will out perform most forged blades.

We have not experimented with blades developed via stock removal alone since 1979 and my testing was limited to "it did not crack when I hardened it".

well, I've one up'd u on the testing of stock removal blades... I've hammered mine through signs, buried the blade in railroad ties and levered it out sideways to test the tip, and just yesterday I cut through a whitetail deer antler with no damage to name a few, so I do have a lot of faith in these blades, i just want to make sure I give a product I can put my name behind. especially when most of my buyers are military guys themselves and they will put a blade through hell just because it was the only tool available, and I want them to be able to have absolute faith that they can put these blades through almost anything and still carry it on patrol. I am going to start poking around for 5160 as my "go to" carbon steel (with the help of our friends at john deer) and start my testing.

and don't take my last post to be me boasting. to the best of my knowledge, this is probably the only area I will have ever one upped you in any way shape or form regarding knives... and solely for the reasons you mentioned. you don't do stock removal.

No offense taken, I only wish there were other makers interested in pushing their steel to the limit who are willing to test and share, we could all learn from each other. I have been over 20 years working with the same pour of steel with a metallurgist helping me and we are finally to the point where results are predictable when we begin a new experiment.

We all have a lot to learn.

I couldn't agree more... that's one of the things I admired about you when I first started out (still do, mind you) is that you wanted to see just where the limits of your steel was and knew you had to destroy a few along the way to get those answers. I'm of the mind that if I test my blades well past where anyone would "normally" go then at least I can say with all confidence that I know my blades will stand and deliver. then it's up to the customer to appreciate the design and decide that my knife is the one he (or she) will chose to carry... which is another matter, i've refined my shape enough over the years that form has come second to function and they're not as pretty as I'd like, lol.

The only way we as makers can know the absolute limits of our knives is to test a representative sample to destruction. When potential clients want to know the functional qualities of a knife, they can first of all examine the design of the entire knife as a package, be able to recognize stress raisers and all aspects of the requirements of the knife they seek, this includes the handle design, scabbard and naturally more. Ask the maker questions like why and what for. The next question is to ask the maker how he tests his knives and what the absolute upper limits are.

As most will not use their custom knife seriously many judge fit and finish as an index of quality, they judge by what they can see and what they hear other say. The two functions, first -that sought by the collector - and those sought by the man who is purchasing the knife as a last ditch survival tool are not necessarily positively correlated. The ultimate survival knife may not nor does it need to manifest perfection when it comes to fit and finish.

I couldn't agree more. I primarily design my knives to be used and used hard and as such, there is very little "pretty" involved and my fit and finish are at 80% of what I would consider "good". I find they have a pleasing shape, but more from refinement of the knife over the years rather than for any asthetics, like a shark... beautiful, because it has gotten rid of everything useless in it's evolution. Again I agree, the thing I want is for any potential buyer to ask those very things, as every change I have made in every blade has some reason behind it.