View Full Version : Some Thoughts on Testing


JHossom
12-28-2001, 10:48 AM
Here's my take on testing knives...

For starters, a knife is usually designed for a particular set of tasks. If it's a hunter, it needs to gut, skin, split a breastbone, maybe pop a joint out of the socket, and bone out the animal if you have nothing else to use. It might be able to cape, but caping and skinning are often at odds with blade shape requirments. In a pinch it should double as a useable survival knife, which means it might have to cut wood or rope and do some other chores, but it won't be a great survival knife nor will it chop concrete.

In my mind, the best tests are those performed by our customers who use our knives. If a customer tells me he's getting unusually good service from a blade, that's real world testing. If he's a professional hunter, I know that's REAL real world testing. If he tells me he's having trouble with the grip when his hands are bloody, that's real world testing. If he sends back the knife with a broken point or an edge with a chunk out of it and tells me that happened while he was skinning a whitetail, ...well I've stabbed a knife into the ground to clean the blade myself a couple times. Sometimes you get unlucky and hit a rock, and most hunting knives don't handle rocks well. If he tell's me the edge chipped while he was using it to quarter an elk, driving the edge through the spine with a log, I'll replace the knife and hope he buys a better tool for that chore before his next hunt. There is a point at which any edge will break and it's the knifemaker's responsibility to decide where he's willing to let that happen for the sake of better performance in the majority of a knife's tasks. Obviously you can build a knife that will never break under any conditions, but it probably won't be any fun to use or carry.

Some months ago on another forum, Rob commented that a few hundred happy customers can't be wrong, and he's right. It's arrogant to think otherwise, though Rob was blasted with a barrage of such arrogance for suggesting that customer feedback was THE critical test of a knife. (That's one reason we are here on this forum, where discussions are civil and productive.)

I have my fighters tested by the best knife fighter I know, and he's free to do anything he wants to those blades based on what he thinks are representative stresses a fighting blade might encounter. Fighters are high stress knives and are expected to deal with almost any impact, including the edge of an opponent's blade at high speed. With a fighter, catastrophic failure can mean death. A broken blade or even a broken point means you are weaponless. It's just like running out of bullets, and the knifemaker is obligated to ensure that never happens. Lots of folks build fighters, or knives that are called fighters, but a fighter has to be more than just something sleek and pointy. Even if there is just one chance in a thousand it might ever be used in a real fight, a fighter must be able to perform or it should never be called a "fighter". In my mind as a knifemaker, when you label a knife as a hunter, a fighter or a camp knife you are certifying that knife is fully capable of performing those tasks expected of such a knife. If it's just a toy, a pretend "fighter", call it something else. If you call it a fighter, test it or better still have someone who can really use a fighter test it under conditions that are fully representative of a knife fight, and expect the knife to be destroyed or at least badly dinged. And remember, in a fighter the blade is just one important feature, the handle and the knife's overall maneuverability are equally important. If you're not a trained martial artist, you have no way of accurately assessing these qualities. Once more, user feedback is often the best test.

But fighters are not combat knives; they need speed, balance and impact resistance, but don't have to deal with playing Mumblypeg in the desert or opening ammo crates. That's another set of demands and testing parameters. Combat knives are just maybe the most demanding knife designs you might encounter, and the testing needs are unique. Maybe one combat knife in a hundred will ever be used to kill. Most will be used to open crates, cut rope or open boxes, dig storage alcoves in the sides of foxholes, probe for land mines or serve as a piton while scaling a cliff. They'll be asked to cut or chop wood, rope, sheet metal, and other things we can't even think of. Short of sending a hundred or so blades into combat, the only way I know to test combat knives is to abuse them in everyway imaginable and see what it takes to break one. How much force does it take to break off the front inch or so of the blade? How much force does it take to break the blade in the middle? If you can do that without some additional leverage, like an extension pipe, the knife is probably not strong enough. It might well be necessary for the knife edge to be driven though some very thick and maybe very tough materials, so hammering the edge through some nails can be a useful test. While chopping on something, the blade might hit a rock or something else real hard; what will happen? Obviously if you hit something very hard with enough force, you will break something, usually the knife. What is the failure mode in that event? Will the blade simply chip along the edge, or will you blow a big chunk out of it. One is acceptable failure; one is not. A test I use for this is to drive a 10d nail into a board, bend it to 45 degrees, then chop straight down on it so you subject the edge to serious lateral stresses. You need to hit the nail in the lower 30-40% of its length. I've had blades do everything from bounce off (fortunately that hasn't happened again), to cutting through the nail like it wasn't there with just a tiny deformation in the shaving sharp edge to show for its troubles, to some small chips, to popping out chunks of an edge that was too fine for the steel used.

At the blade show this year, I was asked what would happen to my handle if it was dipped in aviation fuel. At the time, I thought that was a pretty bizarre question, though it was asked by a guy who had been there and done that, so it needed to be considered. Think about this, you are on a raid and need to punch some holes in some fuel tanks to start a fire. Does the knife fall apart if you do that. How can you know if you don't dip a handle in gasoline and find out? (BTW, Micarta doesn't do well in that test, but I personally like it better than G-10 for other reasons so I continue to use it.)

There are also tests of reason that apply to combat knives. Many units have a 7" restriction on blade length, so building an 8" combat knife is probably better suited to Hollywood than Tora Bora. There is the inevitable trade-off between strength and weight. Remember, someone has to haul this hunk of steel 24/7, and a few extra ounces can be a drag after awhile. The handle has to work well with or without gloves, when wet, when bloody, and even when the hand holding it doesn't work too well like in extreme cold. The knife is not going to get a daily oiling; in fact it might never get oiled unless it's lucky enough to get wiped down with a dirty bore patch. So it's going to rust, maybe a little, maybe a lot. Which will depend on the steel you use, and there you are with a tradeoff between strength and stainless, which takes you back to how the knife is designed to begin with. Whatever steel you use, the knife has to deal with both it's strengths and weaknesses. And the finish is important. Obviously mirrors are not a great idea when you're trying to be sneaky, so the finish shouldn't reflect sunlight. All of these things are tests of reason, and don't need much testing beyond reasonable thought.

OK, this is long enough for starters. Let's hear some other ideas.....

Mondt
12-28-2001, 11:35 AM
As usual Jerry you bring up a really good point. I agree with you whole heartedly too! The customer is the one that has to be satisfied with the knife. We can do a lot in design and testing, but when ones life depends on the performance of the knife in hand the perspective changes fast. What we as makers do with customer feedback is vital, in my opinion, to making a good knife a great knife. I know you have this down Jerry.

Not having been at knife making very long I am getting good and bad feedback from my customers. When the bad comes I do everything in my power to fix the problem. I also make notes on how this situation is to be avoid in the future. Adjusting a grind angle or handle contour on the particular model to avoid fatigue or "hot spots" in the hand when in use for example.

Another situation I have just addressed with some of my customers is that of proper care of thier knife, especially the non-stainless blades. I normally just write a little blurb on care of the blade on the invoice. But I have found that the invoice is evidently not read will well. So I have taken the care discussion up front. While discussing the knife, sheath, handle etc. I now make sure the customer has heard from my mouth how to care for the steel they are buying.

Jerry, I really think what it comes down to, very simplified, is customer satisfaction. I spent many months in my professional career teaching and training people on this topic. Customer satisfaction has to be a priority if we are going to make it, especially in this business!!

Bottom line, I can't please a customer by selling him what I want him to have and I cannot improve my product if I don't listen to those who use it.

Don't know if it was useful, but those are my thoughts Jerry.

Gary Mulkey
12-28-2001, 07:00 PM
Jerry,

I agree about the testing by the customer. Though I do a certain amount of testing in the shop, nothing can compare with the customer field testing the knife.

I'm curious. I know that you are a user of 30V. How do you put a non-reflective surface on it? Do you acid etch it like 3V?


Gary

DC KNIVES
12-28-2001, 07:14 PM
I have to agree with Jerry on testing.I usually make utility or hunter style knives.Whenever I try a new utility design, I take it to work and try to cut everything that I would expect a customer to do.I have a nephew that hunts regularly and he tests my hunter designs in the field.After that is the feedback from customers good or bad for changes to be made.
While cutting 200' of rope might work for some, I would rather have a customer call me and say he dressed 6 deer without sharpening.I consider Jerry's knives extraordinary in design and workmanship but to test them the same as one of my hunters would be unfair to someone.I think there is a tendency to assume that a standard block of tests will accommodate all styles of knives.I prefer to let the real world test my knives,things like cardboard boxes and deer hides.
Recently I received a call from my nephew who has taken up the psycho sport of hunting hogs with a knife and his dogs.He had just killed a 350 lb. boar with 4" tusks with one of my knives.I was proud and relieved that he was still alive, but we had a discussion on knife design afterwards.As it turns out he prefered a narrower blade for going between the ribs.So he is getting a new design and I am getting some pork.Now this is real world testing.
Doug, as far as care goes, I not only talk to the customer but I have made up index card size instructions for each type of steel and include them with the certificate.It has gotten positive feedback.Take care,Dave.

JHossom
12-28-2001, 07:24 PM
Gary, when I finally figure out how to finish S30V, I'll turn to how to make it non-reflective. At the moment, I'm not having any luck getting it to a decent brushed finish. I did finish a couple smaller blades (<7"), but the big ones where the benefits of 30V would be most important are just beating me to death. Etching should work though; it does on 154CM.

I use it on all my CPM-3V blades now, for making them both non-reflective and more corrosion resistant.

John Frankl
12-29-2001, 01:08 PM
Jerry,

Thanks again for some excellent information and thought-provoking comments.

I might add that many customers know much less about knives, and expect much less from knives, than do makers. The average customer is often thrilled at anything that outperforms his old Buck or Gerber. In such cases it is often up to the maker's own conscience to produce the finest blades of which he is capable. This also makes the distinction you make between the generic customer and the professional hunting guide or professional soldier is an important one.

Being a bladesmith, I might also add (and I know I am a bit prejudiced here) that proper maintenance/corrosion prevention of a non-stain resistant carbon steel knife in the field is only as difficult as the same on one's rifle and sidearm.

John Frankl

Rob Simonich
12-30-2001, 08:39 PM
Quote from Jerry,

Some months ago on another forum, Rob commented that a few hundred happy customers can't be wrong, and he's right. It's arrogant to think otherwise, though Rob was blasted with a barrage of such arrogance for suggesting that customer feedback was THE critical test of a knife. (That's one reason we are here on this forum, where discussions are civil and productive.)

I was as surprised as you were with the barrage of arrogance Jerry. What the guy didnt realize was he called all knife users except himself stupid! After I thought about that it was clear to me who was stupid! ha ha

I still use customer feedback as my biggest thermometer of performance. I like to do my own testing, especially destructive testing. If I send it off to someone to destroy how can I give it my "stamp" of approval if I dont know how the test was conducted? Customers on the other hand can give great feedback on a myraid of things that I wouldnt think of, or dont have time for.

One of the best edgeholding tests I have come across is to make up a couple knives for castrating calves in the spring and give them to a couple local ranchers to use. By the time these knives are done in the spring they may have been at 10 ranches and castrated 10,000 claves! Not only are they cutting hair and flesh, but grit imbedded in the scrotum. After branding season I have a great idea how the steel will perform in many ways.

Great post as always Jerry!

JHossom
12-30-2001, 09:15 PM
Man, that's a LOT of oysters! :)

Hell of a test though...

Rob Simonich
12-31-2001, 12:15 AM
Yeah, that amounts to about 20,000 Rocky Mountain Oysters! Every year up here someone puts on the Rocky Mountain Testicle Festivle. Pretty good party! I rarely do the castrating anymore, although I have done thousands. Anymore I just stay on a horse and heel calves all day long! :)

JHossom
12-31-2001, 08:27 AM
BTW, I agree that you have to do your own destructive testing. It's important to know at exactly what point a blade failed. It's also necessary to play with the variables to come up with the best combination for every steel and blade design that will not fail. You can only do that by doing, observing and fixing in my experience.

What I could never do though is to skin out as many deer as my customers, let alone Zebra or Kudu. And I am simply unable to generate the cutting forces that Mario can achieve with my fighters, so while the knife might cut through a leg of lamb or pork, I could never do so. The only way I can test how well the fighter can perform is to eliminate the human limitation as much as possible. It's also the only way I can know how well the handle and balance work under very high stress conditions. Early on, Mario had trouble with my handle (especially on small fighters) when used in very hard thrusts against hard targets. Worked for me just fine, but he stabs a LOT harder and the handle slipped in his hand. After that my guards grew 1/4" to make sure it didn't happen again.

One thing that's a problem with customer testing however is the need to distinguish between opinion and hard fact. And how do you distinguish between a guy who's using the knife correctly and one who's not. The most misused knife in the word has to be a hunter. I'll bet I've watched a couple dozen hunters skin deer, and most of them use just the point of the blade and not the belly. That point can get used up pretty quickly, especially if it's been stabbed into gravel a few times while field dressing.

Lots to think about...