I like long smooth convex edges on my knives. I find these edge cut extremely well, and hold up better under extreme demands.

I shape my edges by starting with an edge thickness that might be about 0.040", though the steel above that edge might be a little thinner because of the way I hollow grind. I generally lay in a bevel of about 20+/- degrees, depending on the knife, size, and intended use.

All of this is done on slack belts, though I use one at high tension with little give and one at lower tension and more slack. Once I've raised a wire edge with 120 grit 3M 977 belt at high tension, I go to my looser setup and a 320 or 400 grit J-Flex belt to begin shaping how the edge will finally look.

The first thing I do is to knock off the shoulder of the bevel, using an extremely shallow angle (shallower is better, but leave a little room to go even shallower on the next belt ). In my experience, hard angles are points of high drag in cuts so I get rid of them entirely. After smoothing over the shoulder, I allow the belt to work it's way towards the edge, by slightly increasing the angle until I am almost but not quite at the edge. In effect I get as close as I can without getting there and raising another burr.

I then switch to a Trizact #16, and beginning at the most shallow angle I can get, I smooth out and semi-polish the whole curve, inching towards the edge as before, but this time I go to the edge and form a nice smooth even wire along the entire edge. Sometimes, I've had to go back to the 400 grit belt if the wire won't form, and do some more smoothing towards the edge. Once the wire edge is nice and smooth, I go to a polishing belt.

I use plain cloth belts that I get from K&G. Depending on the steel, I load it with either dark green or white compound (CPM-3V doesn't like green so I use only white on it). Beginning again at the top of the curve, I polish the whole edge, by progressing slowly towards the edge. You have to be careful throughout this process not to overheat the steel, using just one pass between dips in the water bucket. (with the Trizact belt, you need to dry the blade before returning to the belt, since these belts are not waterproof).

You have to be especially careful with the polishing belt, not to overheat the edge. As it gets finer, it is more prone to heating. The green compound in particular will overheat the edge in a hurry if you let it. Using ever lighter pressure, polish right out to the egde and you will see a VERY fine wire raised with the polishing belt. That's it for using the belt when that happens. I then strop the edge with leather, until there's just no hair left of my arm... :)

Sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, no amount of stropping will clean up the edge. In these instances, I'll use my 1800 rpm polishing buff with white compound and a VERY light touch to brush off the edge. That seems to always solve the problem, and I can't tell the difference between the stropped and buffed edges. I just don't like to buff, if I can get it done with stropping.

This edge, when done properly, is very strong and cuts better than any other edge I've ever used. There is very little drag in cuts, and it stays sharp for a long time. Since you inevitably increase the original ~20 degree angle to something greater as you finish with the 400 grit and #16 belts, you likely end up with a final edge angle of maybe 25 degrees. This may seem like a lot, and if you are making a small knnife you can probably start a lot lower (maybe 15 degrees or less), but there is nothing wrong at all with how this heavy angle cuts and cuts.

For sharpening I recommend running a ceramic stick along the edge from time to time. If it gets way out of shape, I re-edge my blades for free.

I've put this same edge on an $18 Ontario Machete and amazed some pretty good knifemakers with how well that blade can cut through sapplings and still shave. Considering it is 1095 steel at Rc50, that ain't too bad. I've had 6 of these machetes walk away with friends so far this year.

Give it a try and let me know what you think.

Great post, Jerry- my method is very similar to yours, but I wind things up with a Trizact 6 (after the 16) instead of a polishing belt. May have to try one of those!

Silence? Is this worth doing?

I know I'm not the guy you want to hear from, Jerry, but YES, it is worth doing. I think things are a little slow everywhere right now, but just having valuable information like this written down is worth a bunch. I see that there have been forty-some views of your post so far, and I would bet that everyone who read it came awaywith a better understanding of the process. Please don't give up!!!

I slack belt mine to 600 grit on the belts, then buff the edges and get out the stones for that final edge.
It gives a great edge and lasts longer than any machine application I have ever tried.Plus it is easy to duplicate out in the field if need be. Not many people could duplicate a machined edge with a stone,and wind up reshaping the edge geometry.
Truing up on a stone and strop kinda breaks the knife in for normal use.

I use the same slack belt method-a 120 grit with max belt tension, then 220, 400 with loose tension, them 15 micron, 9 micron and finally a worn out 9 micron with green chrome rouge to a wire edge. I strop the wire edge on a thick piece of leather I have glued to a piece of granite. I first tried the slack belt on my Bader between the two inch rollers and the platen removed, but switched to using the slack area between the tracking wheel and contact wheel. I can see the edge better when I use the top part of the belt.Friends like my edge so much I'm constantly asked to sharpen their knives for them.
The edge looks nice and shiny, too. I have trouble keeping it very straight, though, for instance a wharncliffe blade. I sometimes use a diamond stone on that one.

Yeah, a wharncliffe is tough. The problem I have is with the lighter, flexible belts. They are impossible to run the length of the edge evenly on a wharncliffe, at least in my experience.

I stopped using those micron belts when I got so many belt cuts in one week I ran out of bandaids. :)

I'm a little older now; I might have to try them again. Sometimes, it's hard for me to write this stuff, because I change belts so often. Always looking for that magic combination that will make all this easy. :)

thanks for the information
i have not been able to put a shaving edge on my knives yet, i've tried and tried but it diden't work. i'll try you method exept i don't have the trizact or cloth belts.

by the way, anyone know where you can get cloth, trizact belts in 1x30 sixe belts?
thanks

You don't need Trizact or cloth belts to make this work. Just take it down to the finest belt you have and raise a wire edge. Then take your most worn out belt in your finest grit, and apply white compound to it. Get the wire to flash along the edge, then strop on leather. You might have to strop for quite awhile, but when that edge appears, it will pop hair for sure.

Watch your angle carefully. You might be using too steep an angle. For starters try maybe 15-20 degrees, and understand, that isn't much angle off the belt. Good luck.

I've been using a new method recently with good results. I take the blade up to 800 grit normally then turn the belt over and strop the blade while running the belt up side down. I then finish stropping by hand. This reduces the stropping time considerably.

Gary Mulkey

Great info Jerry and the rest. I piced up an old knife at a garage sale here in Clancy for $1. I looks like an old Russel double edge sticker. It was pretty worn but very sharp, and had an edge very much like you describe. I was on my 4 wheeler headed home and stopped to let my dogs swim in the creek. I found a very smooth stone and wiped the edge on this knife a little and it would very easily float hair after I stropped it on my boot. I took that $1 knife home and with its 5" or so blade would sail right through 2 1" ropes. It also cut the pop can easily. I keep that knife in my shop and look it over when I think of edges. Whoever the previous owner was 50 to 100 years ago knew all about edges, what he wanted and how to get them. Impressive for a knife that cost a buck!

For my edges I first set a rough edge with a 400 grit slack belt, I dont worry too much about exact angles i'm basically just removing material. This BTW is the most nerve racking part of making a knife for me, something about bringing several hours of finished work near a moving belt scares me :eek:

I set my final edge on a Lansky *type* sharpener working through to a fine stone and then a quick stropping. I realize this is a lot more time consuming than using a grinder the whole way, but i am more confident this way and my customers can easily keep the same edge on the knife with minimal equiptment.

regards

Eric.

That is a heck of an article. I have a Hossom sharpened Ontario machete and I have chopped up a lot of brush and trimmed trees and the edge geometry is what keeps on cutting. BTW it will still shave hair on most of the edge. And what gets me is there is no deformation to the edge either. It really is a tough edge to beat.

Jonesy

thanks for all the info you guys, i can't wait to try this out on a knife once i have the time!

I tried something new, for me anyway.I bought a leather belt at the Guild Show.I got it for my small grinder, a 1" x 42" to try it out.After getting to the worn 400 grit,I switched to the leather belt and white compound.Light touch and it was pretty quickly very sharp.I was pleasently surprised.Don't know if these are made in 2"x48" or 2"x72".Dave

I've tried a 2 x 72" leather belt and also a leather clad wheel, and have not been able to get them to work for me. I'm not ruling out that the problem may be I didn't use them right, but I seemed to loose the edge more than enhancing it. As I'm typing this, I'm reminded I haven't tried the belt at lower speed on my VS grinder, so that may well be worth trying. Do you have any idea of what speed that 1 x 30" grinder runs at? Thanks for the reminder. Good idea.

Jerry,It's a 1"x42" 3450 rpm,5" drive so about 4500 sfpm.Dave

Sorry, I meant 1 x 42". That's faster than I expected. It might be related to the amount of slack in the belt. I'll have to do some playing around. Thanks for the prod though.

Jerry,
Sorry for the late response to this thread, I haven't been around too much. I have a couple of questions, I hope they don't sound too mundane.

For the fine, polished edge that you have done, does it seem to work OK for say, a skinning blade application? I have found a little more agressive "not so polished" edge works for me there. Comments?

Are you using your variable speed Bader now for this? I personally would hate to think of going back and trying to sharpen blades on something other than a variable speed grinder. I am really spoiled.

Craig

Merry Christmas Craig and Everyone else!!

The "aggressive" edge is an illusion IMHO. It works fine for awhile, but you quickly knock off those high spots that are acting like tiny serration's and are left with a very unaggressive dull edge. The fine polished edge will wear a whole lot longer than the one you are speaking of in my experience. It may not cut frozen veggies as well, but it will be skinning deer long after your arms get tired. I have many customers who dress and skin 6-7 deer without resharpening. In fact I count it a failure if a knife can't get through a season.

One of the benefits of using very good steel is the fine grain structure that allows you to refine the edge beyond what you can achieve with lesser steels. 3V is particularly fine grained and takes one heck of an edge if you hone it with your finest belts then polish with white compound. Also, it is my firm opinion that a lot of dulling comes not from "wear" so much as microchipping, which a more highly refined edge resists much better than the "aggressive" edge, which invites chipping. Heck, this is the primary reason for bladesmiths beating on their steel. If you don't get finer grained edges from doing that, why bother? And if you don't use the fine grain to make the edge super sharp and super tough, why bother?

I'm not using my VS Bader for sharpening, but there is no reason you can't. I just prefer to use my square wheel which has a very good slack belt area, when the platen is rotated to the rear. Fact is a variable speed would be better, since it is less likely to overheat the fine edge.

...and a Merry Christmas to you and yours, Jerry! And to everyone else, too! (Man, I hope my old english teacher doesn't check up on this forum, two sentences beginning with "and")

I will have to try both. I may have to wait until next season, though. I have been using a 440V blade this season and it has peformed adequately. It hasn't had to be sharpened so far after 4 Texas size (as in not big) deer.

Thank you for your comments. They are much appreciated.

Craig

Thanks Jerry and all. This is an excellent post/thread, and one of the biggest reasons to be on these forums. From a beginning maker--Thank You.

John Frankl

Jerry, let me take this one step away from the knifemaker. I don't have a grinder, so how do I go about getting that fabu edge? I have been using a spyderco sharpmaker and some flat arkansas stones (which I need to replace) which flat stones would you recommend? which steps from coarse to fine? Are the manmade's (ceramics) any better than the natural stone? TIA

I couldn't use a stone if my life depended on it. Jerry, you can get a cheap 1" x 42" Grinder for under $100. You can get a fairly good 2 x 48" grinder (Kalamazoo) for about $300. Both with motors.

Jerry,

Great thread, but it raises a question for me. I think I know what you mean in describing your edge grind, but a pic would really help.

Any chance you have a tester blade laying around that the tip is missing from so we could see the actual grind profile on it from the end?

Please don't go making a special effort on this if you don't have a blade that Mario has already abused laying around. ;)

Thanks! :)

I don't have a broken blade with an edge on it. So far, Mario has not managed to break one of mine. Basically what I try to achieve is an edge profile that looks a lot like a bullet, and for the same reason. The key to cutting is maximum penetration with minimal drag. That's what bullets are designed to achieve.

BTW Jim, nice site.

So far, Mario has not managed to break one of mine.

Somehow I already knew that! :lol:

Okay, the bullet analogy helps. Thanks for that & the site looksee. :)

On the contact wheel at slow speed, something like 1000fpm,
I'll start with a 120 grit to shape the edge bringing a rough wire edge on both sides, then to a 240 then to a 400 bringing wire edge up both sides for each grit. I make it a point to move briskly along the wheel to keep the heat down. Then to a buffer at a very small angle, several strokes each side, again quickly to keep the heat down, lightly on the wire edge with 220 grit, then the 600 grit, (this is where the wire edge dissappears) then finish with the pink no cloud. Finally a slice through paper along the entire edge to make sure there are no snags.

Uh, 7 deer...and now a pretty good slice on the tip of my middle finger.

The edge was taken to 30 micron at a slow speed (variable speed grinder) and then "very lightly" placed on the buffer for a pass or two with scratchless pink.

I was really pleased that no chipping whatsover occurred on the edge with this 440V blade as I have heard some other makers complain of in the past. I contemplated this and when the blade was hollow ground, I left the edge a little thicker than normal. It is not a paper thin edge by any means but thin enough to do the job. This was not the first 440V blade that I have made but it is just the first one that I decided to personally put through the paces. I have had no complaints at all from the other blades that I have made from this steel. As stated above, it has performed adequately but I believe there are better steels out there.

Next deer season, I plan on taking this same blade to a very, very fine polished edge as has been stated above. I am really anxious to try this out. I expect to see a marked improvement.
Still living and learning...

Craig

I can look at Jerry's blades for hours. I've never seen anything like them before. Next time I see him at a show, I'm going to get some shots for you all. I'd like for everyone to see a few super close shots of his grinds. There are nothing like them anywhere.

It's amazing, but can tell a great maker purely by his work. I mean, there are a lot of makers who make knives that are excellent, but they don't really stand out for anything other than looking like a fine knife, which is cool. But, a few other makers are fortunate enough to have developed a look that separates them from the pack. In Jerry's case, I can pick a Hossom off of a table with 1000 knives on it, that's because his blade profiles and grinds are like nothing else you'll see. Not just one type either ... but across the board.

I remember the first time I picked up his Millennium Series, we're talking at least a 20" inch long fighter styled "killer" that I grabbed. When a man's first thought is "whoa ... I've never felt of anything like this before", something new is going on in the head, right? Then you look down the blade to see perfect grinds that are 3x longer than anyone else's, you're thinking ... "man, this dude's really good!"

The only thing I recommend that you do when you visit him at a show is stand back ... It's dangerous to be around his table at times. You'll see just about everyone around his table swinging and waving his knives like a pack of Ninjas at Osama Bin Laden's birthday party ... people love them. They are that cool~!

And, you guy's are right ... we need to get some serious Hossom blade shots to post in here. I'll make sure that happens soon!

Alex

Whoa Alex, you're gonna make me have to raise my prices..... :)

Thanks buddy. It's comes from 20 years of grinding upside-down.

Jerry, nope cost of a grinder isn't the issue, living in an apartment is. I will never have a grinder as long as I live where I am. So what do your customers do when they want to sharpen a knife and don't have access to a grinder? That's really my question. I know some makers will ask you how you will sharpen their knife and make the edge accordingly. Of course now you may compromise that high performance edge. So what's a knife junkie to do? :)

For starters, a convex edge lasts a very long time. (ref. Jonesy's post on the Ontario) It can be touched up pretty easily with a ceramic stick, but if it needs major work, you just set up your Sharpmaker and lay in a bevel like the convex edge wasn't there. You still get some benefits, since the shoulders of the convex edge are above your bevel and will still reduce drag through a cut. The last option is to keep your knifemaker alive until you're ready to retire the knife. :)

I'll try to remember that last one :)

I have many years to get under my belt before I will even come close to having the experience that Jerry and a few of the other folks that post here. I am still living and learning along this journey we call knifemaking. The subject of this thread is one of the most profound subjects that is ever touched on and can make or break a good blade.

I suppose some folks are confused sometimes when it is stated that it is a convex, Moran or appleseed edge. Simply stated, although it may not be apparent to the naked eye, the edge is somewhat rounded, or convexed on both sides. It looks like an "appleseed". An exagerated example is an axe. Axes don't dull too quickly. Now remember, on a knife, only the edge is convexed, not the grind (although it could be if the maker so desires).

Quite a few folks, just as stated above, are concerned that it can not be sharpened by the owner. There is nothing farther from the truth! I was of this opinion until I was shown otherwise by one of the instructors at the Bladesmith school in Old Washington. He took a dull convexed edge blade and hit it just a few times on a stone and it was ready for use again. I like a crock stick or even a Spyderco sharpener for this but it is fairly simple to do. Now granted, if the edge is really buggered up, this will not hold true, but that is basically with any edge that has been abused. What I was told at the time is that the owner needs to be able to at least touch up or sharpen his blade in the field. I have to agree. That was a valuable lesson and changed my way of thinking as far as edges are concerned.

Craig

i tried this a couple days ago. Went to .035" thick edge, put a reg bevel on with a 120 3M 977, then slack belted with the 120, then a 3m 707 220 grit, then went to an A30 trizact, then strop. wow. incredible!!! I love this!

Take it down to a Trizact 16 or 6 and it will get even better, plus more durable. The smoother you make that edge, the more difficult it is for bad things to chip it (especially the micro-chips you can't see but which are a major component of dulling, IMO).

Jerry,
Today I took a machete down to A6 Trizact on a loose belt then removed what remained of the wire edge. The only three words that come to mind are:

Lord have mercy!!!

Ronco would be proud of this one...it slices, it dices, it chops...

The darn thing just works!

Craig

Neat, huh? :D

Thanks to all for the great info and different techniques. This is what makes this a great forum.
KEN (WWJD)