Hi guys,

I have some of Devin's raindrop and I checked his sight for handling. I'm a little confused now.

I've been told to treat it just like ATS, but Devin's site handles it more like carbon steel. Also I know that different damascus have different ways of finishing it to get the best look. What finish would you guys use? The only other damascus I've used was Damasteel and that I finished to 2000 before etching.

Thanks,
Jim

I haven't looked at his website but the information I received with the stainless damascus I got from him says to heat treat at 1975 for 10 minutes, quench in oil, temper two times at 350 for one hour, and cryo is recommended. Doesn't sound like a carbon steel process to me.

For finishing, he recommends 400 grit and specifically says do not buff. Etch in 50/50 FeCl for 10 minutes, repeat as desired, buff lightly one time before last etch if you want a brighter blade ...

Thanks for the response Ray,

Sorry, being still fairly new I thought oil quenching was a carbon technique. Since my shop is a spare room of the house I'm not setup for oil quenching. Tried it once and set the alarms off for an hour and had ADT calling to confirm the alarm.

After seeing your response I called Devin (to make sure I didn't waste $80 on steel I couldn't process) and he did say I could plate quench with forced air.

Thanks again,
Jim

Well, Devin's website says that his stainless damascus steel is made from AEB - L and 304.

AEB-L is a steel from Udeholm in Sweden and contains C 0,7; Si 0,3; Mn 0,6; Cr 13,5; Mo 0,3.

304 is 18 Cr / 10 Ni and hence a non hardening austenitic stainless steel.

I would not try to plate and/ or air quench this material if i am looking for really good results. Also, for good results, you should perform a cryo quench in liquid nitrogen.

Achim

Plate quenching works just fine. You can also leave it in the foil packet and go directly in to water.

Just to be on the safe side since I now understand you have not processed stainless before I would point out that you will need a heat treat oven for this steel. You don't want to do this stuff in a forge or with a torch. Considering that your shop is in a spare room most likely you do have an oven but I figured I'd make sure so you wouldn't waste your steel .........

Listen to Larrin, he makes the stuff and like Ray said, I hope you have a high temp oven.

He makes AEB-L? Well, ok, i was wrong. I thought it was made by Uddeholm steel in Sweden.

Now my head is really spinning. A bit afraid to try with people going back and forth:eek:

I'll just have to give it a try and hope, but its all part of the learning curve.

Ray, I really appreciate your help. I am very nervous about the cost of the steel verses my inexperience. I do work mostly in CPM steels with plate quench and forced air (usual from a can), that's why I don't know much about the oil quenching or carbon steels. Sorry about the confusion.

Larrin, Devin mentioned that but I'm still learning how to grind properly and I have gotten warping when I water quenched previous blades.

Thanks for jumping in and helping all,
Jim

He makes AEB-L? Well, ok, i was wrong. I thought it was made by Uddeholm steel in Sweden.

Larrin is Devin's son and helps make the pattern welded material. He or Devin would be the guys to ask how to heat treat the steel they make.

I'm not sure where McKinny is, but you're welcome to come down and use my ovens and oil baths...assuming the blade fits in them! I'm in Bryan, TX (actually Kurten, but you probably won't find that on a map!).

Thanks for the offer but McKinney is north of Dallas. Looks like it's about 3.5 hours, 4 by the way Texans drive (grew up in Detroit, no one gets speeding ticket there!!). I'll remember that for the future though!! I'd like to get out around TX, OK, AR & LA to meet other makers & see the shops but between Reserve duty and normal life I've only had a few local chances.

If I get to nervous I can always send it to Paul Bos.

Thanks for your guys help,
Jim

.....Looks like it's about 3.5 hours, 4 by the way Texans drive.....

I made it to Texarkana in 4 hrs back in July.:101


Now that the weather is back down in the low 90's we'll be starting up the knifemaker meets again down here. Plenty of crash space here if you decide to come down to one.

Now my head is really spinning. A bit afraid to try with people going back and forth:eek:

I'll just have to give it a try and hope, but its all part of the learning curve.

Ray, I really appreciate your help. I am very nervous about the cost of the steel verses my inexperience. I do work mostly in CPM steels with plate quench and forced air (usual from a can), that's why I don't know much about the oil quenching or carbon steels. Sorry about the confusion.

Larrin, Devin mentioned that but I'm still learning how to grind properly and I have gotten warping when I water quenched previous blades.

Thanks for jumping in and helping all,
Jim
If you have experience with plate quenching CPM steels, then heat treating the stainless damascus should be no problem, just heat treat like normal, and use the right temperatures. You're getting nervous about nothing.

Oh, and for finishing, 400 grit is fine like it says on the website. The coarser the finish, the darker the etch, the finer the finish, the shinier the bright layers will be. The best way to get the best of both is to get a 400 grit belt finish, then etch in Ferric Chloride, then hand rub with something like 600 grit sandpaper to brighten up the 302 (bright layers), then go back in, etc. until you get what you want.

Damasteel is way more difficult to etch. You rarely see anyone with a good dark/bright contrast. Even guys that use a lot of it usually etch deep and get a light grey on the dark layers at best.

Water quenching in the foil can cause problems if you're inexperienced in any of several different areas of grinding and/or heat treating, which is probably why we don't recommend it in our literature. :) There are also several heat treating myths that can screw it up also, like poking a hole in the foil, or putting paper (or kerosene, etc.) in the foil. If you're getting good results with plate quenching, however, there's no reason to change now.

I agree with that on Damasteel about the contrast, but I do like it deep etched and buffed.

I started grinding last night so we'll see how it goes.

Thanks,
Jim

It's off topic, but the difference to damasteel is pretty normal because it's made from two martensitic "stainless" steels which will both harden and both take an etch, just that one will etch less due to higher chromium content. Whereas the Devin Thomas damascus is made from AEB-L which will harden and take an etch and from 302 (or 304, which is mentioned on the website) which will not harden and also not take an etch except if you use king's water or hydrofluoric acid.

Besides, in my opinion, damasteel is not a pattern welded steel for obvious reason.

Achim

It's off topic, but the difference to damasteel is pretty normal because it's made from two martensitic "stainless" steels which will both harden and both take an etch, just that one will etch less due to higher chromium content. Whereas the Devin Thomas damascus is made from AEB-L which will harden and take an etch and from 302 (or 304, which is mentioned on the website) which will not harden and also not take an etch except if you use king's water or hydrofluoric acid.

Besides, in my opinion, damasteel is not a pattern welded steel for obvious reason.

Achim
We've made damascus using ATS-34 and 154CM (not together) for many years and etching is very similar to damasteel.

I wasn't saying that our steel is necessarily better than damasteel, just that that particular combination is easier to etch than damasteel. Our customers have shown overwhelmingly that they prefer contrast/ease of etching to our double high carbon mixes, though the amount of double high carbon stainless and tool steel alloys has always been relatively low, so maybe it just hasn't had the chance to catch on. Either way, we're not hurting for orders so I'm not worried about it.

I maybe showing my ignorance here but how is Damasteel not damascus? Isn't a powdered steel based process like mosaic damascus?

I will say the reason I hesitate on Damasteel is not because of the looks but because I have to use muratic (sp?) acid. I really don't like having it around due to the fact I don't have a safe place to store it and when I use it the fumes can blow over into the neighbors yards, doesn't make for a happy neighbor. Now I do like the effect you can get from etching it and buffing out all the gray. I've seen that tried with damascus and it blurs the pattern a great deal, but my experience is very limited.

Jim

P.S. - ground and sanded the blade last night and should be heat treating this weekend

I maybe showing my ignorance here but how is Damasteel not damascus? Isn't a powdered steel based process like mosaic damascus?

I will say the reason I hesitate on Damasteel is not because of the looks but because I have to use muratic (sp?) acid. I really don't like having it around due to the fact I don't have a safe place to store it and when I use it the fumes can blow over into the neighbors yards, doesn't make for a happy neighbor. Now I do like the effect you can get from etching it and buffing out all the gray. I've seen that tried with damascus and it blurs the pattern a great deal, but my experience is very limited.

Jim

P.S. - ground and sanded the blade last night and should be heat treating this weekend
I'm not sure why damasteel isn't damascus either.

Muriatic is evil stuff, we had a leak one time and it rusted everything within a 30 foot radius before we realized what had happened. I don't see why you couldn't buff our damascus, though the look will be different because we use thin bright layers whereas damasteel has almost a 50/50 look.

I would guess it's the thin layers that make a difference. Better looking for their styles, but I guess easier to wash out. By the same token I don't care for the larger Oden's eye pattern of Damasteel, but I make smaller knives and that pattern doesn't work well for 1" x 2-3" blades, at least in my opinion for what it's worth.

When I have a little more experience with making damascus work into the designs of the knives I'll give buffing yours a try.

Jim

Well, damascus steel, or to say it correctly: pattern welded steel, is just that. It's made of different steel pieces that are forge welded together.
Damasteel is a simple powder metallurgic steel that is just made from 2 different powders, RWL34 and PMC27. It is not pattern welded. It is made from those 2 powders that are poured into a large recipient, a steel tube. The tube is closed with a lid, a vacuum is drawn on the tube and the whole thing is put into a hot isostatic press (HIP). The whole stuff is heated and sintered together. And, the recipients can take between 3 and 10 tons of steel powder. That's why you can see Damasteel everywhere, it's a mass product like any "normal" powder steel. And even Damasteel AB doesn't claim that it's damascus steel.

Devin's steel is something completely different. It's a classic pattern welded steel, just made from stainless steels, which asks for some special precautions. There's only a handfull of smiths making stainless damascus steel because of these precautions which make it somewhat more difficult to do than normal tool steel PW.

Achim

Larrin, are you and your Dad messing with titanium and SS, or is that someone else?

Out side of being mass produced how is that different than mosaic damascus where they do can welding? Not picking just curious.

Jim

Mosaic damascus made in tubes is a completely different thing. Some, not all, use powdered steel to fill the voids between solid steel parts (!!) in this process. Still, the material is not sintered but forge welded. The produced mosaics are then taken and further worked with the same classic forge and pattern welding methods used since 2000 years. This process is, like the one used to make Devin's damascus, classic craftmanship. It can't be compared to powder metallurgy.

That doesn't mean that PM is a bad process. It's an industrial top technology used to make very clean and sometimes unusual steels. But if you say that it's making damascus steel than you also have to say that, for example, CPM S30V is a damascus steel, just without a pattern.

Achim

I guess it's the term "sintered." I did a quick Google and the best I can up with is http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1725 .

From what I understand this is a chemical process verses a mechanical process? Like the different ways of making mokame, either from compression at welding temperatures or by holding it for time at a specific temp that causes a chemical bond?

Jim

Mosaic damascus made in tubes is a completely different thing. Some, not all, use powdered steel to fill the voids between solid steel parts (!!) in this process. Still, the material is not sintered but forge welded. The produced mosaics are then taken and further worked with the same classic forge and pattern welding methods used since 2000 years. This process is, like the one used to make Devin's damascus, classic craftmanship. It can't be compared to powder metallurgy.

That doesn't mean that PM is a bad process. It's an industrial top technology used to make very clean and sometimes unusual steels. But if you say that it's making damascus steel than you also have to say that, for example, CPM S30V is a damascus steel, just without a pattern.

Achim
Though the "classic process" intrigues me with our damascus, I still think damasteel is damascus. It is "pattern welded", or welded to make a pattern. It uses two different materials as well, I don't see what the big deal is. Buy the materials for the look and performance that you desire. Damasteel has some interesting patterns (though some that use a lot of it say that it all starts to look the same), and two good steels.

Larrin, are you and your Dad messing with titanium and SS, or is that someone else?
My dad messed with titanium a long time ago when he had no idea what he was doing and made a nice explosion, I don't think he's messed with it since. I think we could do it now but we probably won't. IMO, there is no point in doing it unless you just like using a titanium damascus (or san-mai) catchphrase. It's much easier, more economical, and in some cases even better to use the stainlesses that are available. Preciptation hardening stainlesses and 420 series steels are all good for laminating.

As a side note, I saw a knife the other day touting a titanium laminated carbon steel blade. Why? I don't know. The knife didn't look like it was meant to be used anyway. Here's a knife similar to what I was talking about: http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=4472&websess=74890434388666

Interesting, thanks Larrin. No, I don't believe that knife would be going on many hunting trips

Well it seems to have gone through the hardening process well. Now I just have to temper it tonight.

Thanks for the help,
Jim