I have been expecting for this subject to come up, but I figured I had to be the one to get it started.
It seems like Mr. Steve Johnson wrote a long article about his polishing steps, what kind of belts, etc...
Mabe certain type of grinding wheels could help to get the job done a little easier. Or mabe it is just the grinding wheels that we get so used to that we never change.
What I learned with Mr. Steve Johnson over the years is almost what I still do now. Use a hard serrated wheel for rough grinding and a soft smooth wheel for finishing.
Now if there is something Mr. Steve Johnson knows about me is that I am always changing, trying, testing, etc.,,, to make a certain step of my knife making suit my own ways.
I will give you an idea on how different knifemakers are on how they grind. Dietmar Kressler grinds EVERYTHING on a 18" smooth hard wheel for hunters. That is it.
I got used to grinding with the finer belts on a hard wheel. I have noticed is that I can get a little more life out off the belts and keep the grinding line very crisp. I still finish up my job on a soft wheel.
Another type of wheel I am starting to like is the SOFT serrated wheels. Those seem to keep a little cooler and I think the cork belts work better on them.
How is this for a start. I would expect to see some different points of view on this subject, but I decided to keep my post short.
Ricardo Velarde
www.velardeknives.com

Thanks for the comments, Ricardo.

It never hurts to think "outside the box," or try something new. There is always another way to do things and, often, that new way can be better, or faster than the old way and still allow one to keep the quality up and get the same job done.

Are bader wheels marked as to what durometer they are? When I ordered mine, it just came with the wheels I ordered by size.

Also, is there a better durometer setting for working in the bevels on a grind? My goal is to have nice, clean rounded bevels, but all I am getting is squared off bevels, which I find very disturbing. Does wheel hardness affect this at all? Also, if I took a file and gently rounded the edges on my wheel, would it help give me a more rounded bevel?

Hello Bob. I am surprised it is taking this long for people to make any comments on this subject.
I think when you order grinding wheels you are better off to specify the durometer you like or want.
I think the harder the durometer on the wheels the easier it is to make those bevels on the blade. After that it is only a clean up job and not necesarily a shaping job. I think with a soft wheel if you try to change things around too much you might end up rounding some corners.
Some people use a radius on the corner of the grinding wheel to make the bevels on the blade, but my opinion is that if you depend on the wheel to create that, then you are limiting yourself to what you can do with your hands.
I like my grinding wheels with square corners.
This is only my opinion, but I think that BY FAR Steve Johnson has the best grind lines, bevels, radiuses etc,,, in the business. I think he can give you a lot more advise and expand a little more on the subject. He is the Master. (At least in the northeast corner of Manti, Utah! - editor)
Keep trying and good luck with your knifemaking.
Ricardo Velarde
www.velardeknives.com

I have been staring at a rough ground Johnson blade every night for the last week and a half and the bevels and lines make me week in the knees:) I don't think he is getting this one back. It is required for academic study:)

Hey! Where'dyougetthatblade???

Blade fairy:)

To answer one of my own questions, the duro is on a little blue tag on the side of the wheel.

Now back to my mantra...must have clean grinds...must have clean grinds...must have clean grinds...

Oh, her again. That explains everything.

By the way. What duro do you use for the hard, serrated wheel? Mine are 90. How about the soft, smoothe wheel? Mine are 60. (According to the little blue tags on the side of the newer wheels.

The 4" 50/50 serrated that I use on fighters, for grinding AND polishing works fine, but it definately isn't as aggressive as the harder serrated wheels which have 33% lands/66% grooves. It feels like about a 60, when compared to the other soft ones, above. No markings on the wheel, it's pretty old.

Any other types, or hardness you use, anyone?

Both of the 10" wheels I got with the grinder initally are 70. I didn't know any better to go harder or softer. My 3" wheel is soft. After using it, I wish my serrated wheel was harder. I will be more edumacated in the future.

It took some time, but I knew some good information would come out on this topic. I thought it was important, because it can get very frustrating working with the wrong grinding wheels. Or, if you are just getting started, at least you will save some $$$ and be a little more educated on what to order.
Good luck you guys
Ricardo Velarde
www.velardeknives.com

Glad we got some input here. Every new maker ought to seriously consider what type of wheel(s) he needs at the outset, rather than having to buy new one(s) after it's too late.

No comments about wheel diameters? what diameter wheels do you use when you hollow grind. Darrel Ralph is making a folder for me and he used to be a flat grind only knifemaker. Recently Kit Carson got him to switch to using a 14" wheel and hollow grinding. Darrel tells me that the blades come out wicked sharp. So I'm getting it done that way, what do you guys use / do ?

On little "Whittler" types I use a 10", on hunters a 14", thanks to Ricardo's insistance! On fighters, from, say, 6" to Big Bears, it's a 4" and on a boot/dirk a 3".

The smaller wheel gives you a sharper center line. It may require a bit of "feathering" out to the edge, but you, or should I say "I," like a crisper looking center line than you'd get with a larger diameter wheel.

I like the idea of using a wheel on a folder blade. Certainly a longer lasting edge would be possible, since, as it is sharpened, it won't immedaitely begin to get thicker. But I'm hardly the man to comment on folder blades at this point in time.

I like it, I like it. I see more comments and very usefull ones.
I know most grinding machines in this country are small. We use 72" belts. Over in Germany Dietmar Kressler has some machines that use 117" belts or mabe 140". That allows them to use bigger wheels. With Dietmar I got used to useing an 18" wheel and we were looking into useing a 22". All this for Hunters.
Ricardo Velarde
www.velardeknives.com

Pretty soon he will be jacking up a VW Bug and running belts off the tires:) Variable speed means giving it more gas:lol:

With Hibben, back in the 60's we were using a Bader with 132" belts. Don Zaccagnino had the same grinder. You were well aware when one of those belts broke!

I think that an 8" wheel was the biggest Gil had at that time. However, that was 35 yrs ago, and I may not recall everything exactly the way it actually was......

Interesting thread guys :)

I have really been thinking about getting a 14" wheel myself.

Interesting to hear Steve's wheel size for the double edged blades. I have ground a few boot knives recently and have been using the 5" wheel on my knifemaker's attachment (Burr King 960).

Since we're talking about grind lines and rough ground blades in this thread...

How far do you guys take them prior to heat-treat?

I took JP Moss's folder making class (I know Ricardo spent some time with Jerry as well) and I took that blade all the way into a hand-rubbed finish before heat-treat.

My blades here at home...I usually only take them to 120 before sending them to Paul. I have a heck of a time getting all my grinds true when the steel is soft.

Knives like the dagger that Terrill posted for me in the gallery I left a small flat in the center when I sent it to Paul. I didn't make the grinds meet until the blade was hard.

I will have to look more into wheel durometer....I will be honest and say I hadn't put much thought into it. Obviously it makes a noticable difference!!!

Thanks Guys! :)
Nick

Mr. Wheeler. I guess there are a lot of ways to skin the cat. Or what we get used to.
You can leave the blades thick and grind after heat treat. You might have a little more control but take more time and use more belts. Mabe less chances to make a mistake.
If you take it all the way, it is easier to grind, less time working on the blade, not as may belts, but when you make the mistakes mmm..... it sure make you wonder which is the best, faster, more economical, or easier way to go about it.
Let us know what you think is best for you.
Ricardo Velarde
www.velardeknives.com

I heat treat first. I just don't have the control, yet, to ensure my grinds are perfectly symmetrical and I don't have to worry about warpage. As far as time and belt usage, since I don't rely on knifemaking for a living, I can afford the extra time and belts. By neccessity, many of you cannot.

I was trying to bring up a few picutres that people could see for the different grinds and I found Steve Johnsons Hunter with Pearl. Look at the end of the post "Mother of Pearl aaarrrgghhh!!", and look at that hunter.
Sorry Bob I made a mistake and some people will have to look at you knife.
Ricardo Velarde

Many makers virtually finish their blades before heat treat. I had to straighten two from my last heat treat batch and they would have been ruined if I hadn't left ample thickness in the edge to grind them straight.

I've done it both ways. Paul Bos will not warp them, I can promise you that. I guess it's what you get used to. It takes very little time to "re-grind" a blade after heat treat. Keep working, you can and will be able to control your grind in soft or hard blades soon. If you use one way you'll get used to it faster and be more consistent. Practice, practice, practice.

Speaking of belts...don't waste yor time on trying to use worn out belts when grinding bevels in blades. You'll save lots of time and money using sharp ones. I use old/partly used belts to profile grind. You can spply lots of pressure to a small area of steel and get something accomplished, and this is a good way to use up those partially worn belts that do nothing but create heat when grinding a blade bevel. There is, of course, a limit to how "used" you want to go. You surely get to a point of diminishing returns.

Hey Bob. You are the man that can do magic with these plastic secretaries. If it doen't take too much time can you show that hunter with Pearl that is on the Mother of Pearl post. That one would be a good one to ask Steve what type of wheel he used on it. 10" or 14".
And the Interframe Integral dagger on the post you did. I think that one would show a 3" or 4" grind.
Ricardo Velarde
www.velardeknives.com

S/S blades are taken to a 600 grit before H/T.I DO NOT regrind S/S blades. 10 minutes of hand work and it is ready to put together.
C/S is entirely different.
220-400 grit before H/T.
I grind almost everything on a 6" wheel for more dramatic grind lines.(I make a lot of folders)
I have a 8" serrated wheel for roughing on my 72" machine and a smooth rubber wheel on my 60" machine.
My surface grinder has a polished aluminum 8" wheel.

The hardness of your sanding back( hand work ) is just as important as the hardness of the grinding wheel.
My rubber finger(shown on the video) is 40 duro.
I also use macarta for a hard back and a strip of leather for a softer one.

Thanks, Gene. you make some excellent points.

We are finding that many makers have many procedures. It's fun to try something you have not done before and see how it works in your shop. Often, a new idea, is a better idea.

...and in the end, we have all these excellent knives with personalities as different as their makers:)

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/bbdogg/SRJ/mopdrop.jpg

That MOP Loveless-style Dropped Hunter was ground on a 14", 90 duro, serrated wheel, feturing 1/4" lands, 3/8" grooves.

It was then polished on a 14", 60 duro. smooth wheel.

Generally, I rough grind, leaving the edge about .060", and then heat treat.

After heat treat, I'll re-grind, on the serrated wheel, taking the edge down to about .020-.030". It'll depend on the type of knife we're dealing with how thick we leave the edge, and then start the polishing process. I go over the blade again, lightly, with a 50X or 60x, somewhat used belt on the smooth wheel, then on to a 400x ALOX belt, 400x cork and 600x cork, finishing up with RCH green chrome on the buffer.

Hi Guys,

I do all my grinding with 8" or smaller wheels even on very large blades, liking to take as much steel out of the blade as I can.

I start with a very roughly serrated, very hard 8" wheel at 36 grit, switching to a smooth 60 duro wheel at 60 grit and beyond. As I go to finer grits, I usually slow the grinder speed.

Lately, given the joys of variable speed, I've been using 3 and 5" wheels on smaller blades, double edged blades and very deep and narrow swedges on large blades. I agree with Steve about what they do for the crispness of the grind line.

Very recently, I've taken that a step further and have even used a 1" wheel for some narrow swedges on small blades, and I've even done one blade using only the 1" wheel.

http://hossom.com/pix3/img6.jpg

2-3/4" blade, 6" OAL, 0.149" 154CM steel. The wheel and the quarter are about the same size. I did some other blades this way on some artsy stuff I hope to have at the Guild Show.

I just love variable speed. Not having it for 20 years was good training though... :)

What is the duro on that quarter you grind with, Jerry:)

Good to hear from you, Jerry!

Thank you for the pointers and insight.

I made a set of mini's a few yrs. ago and used a 1 1/2" wheel extensively. It's lots of fun! Fun growing the skin back too?

Variable machines are great, they allow you to remove less hide and at a slower rate.

Seriously, they are a boon to knife making, make everything nicer, in my opinion.

Thaks again.

Jerry,
Your grinds never cease to amaze me. That is one spiffy looking blade. Would make a perfect working companion for some of your "BIG" blades. Nice to see you here.
Mike Conner

I have been flat grinding with a 2x72 grinder for15 years or so. I have just recently started some hollow grinding and have just recently installed a variable speed motor on my flat grinder. I am trying different speeds for different sizes of sandpaper- generally speaking slower speeds for finishing sizes.Gentlemen, what kind of speed do you use with the cork belts and perhaps other speed ranges for particular work. Sure what works for me is what to use but I sure believe in using someone elses experience When they are willing to share at least to start with. Thanks for your reply. Frank.

Frank, I don't have a tachometer on my Burr King, but the speed pot on the controller is marked from 0 to 10 (or is it 100), so I can estimate percentage of maximum speed.

I seldom use the max speed, even for the coarsest grits, which I run around 75-80%. I step it down about 10% for each drop in grit size, so when running cork and micron belts, I am usually in the 20 to 40% range.

I believe Steve Johnson provided some information on the speeds he uses in his forum, too. Hope this helps.

With coarse grinding belts, I like to go full bore. Faster cutting, less abuse to the belt, I believe, but even at that I often run at 70-80%, as Don described. i can't tell what the speeds are either.

For cork I'll usually be in the 60-70% range. However if I want to get done quick, I'm not against cranking it up to 100. I don't see an awful lot of difference, howeverother than the faster the speed, the more work you get done, but not really a drastic difference.

I'll run at 40-50% if I want to be careful and am not in a rush and, dare I say this, if it feels right. Sometimes, for me, that is the determining factor. Not very professional, I know. Hey, I'm the boss, can't I do what I want, if it's not a waste of time?? Was that kind of a non-answer?

Sorry I'm so slow with the reply, I didn't notice that this thread had gone on to the second page....