Steve,

Thanks for your prompt suggestions for working with the paste solder.I'll be using it

Have you had, or are you aware of problems with "cold rolled" ATS-34, as opposed to hot rolled. I recently got a small quantity of cold rolled ATS from Admiral Steel as the salesman talked me into it because of the cleaner surface on that thickness in cold rolled. The steel did come with a nicer surface, but upon heat treatment (Paul Bos) those blades, and those blades only, all warped. The other hot rolled ATS in the same batch did fine. Then, when finishing the blades, I noticed a grainy looking effect that became apparent when I got down to about 400 grit. Kind of a fine mottling on the surface of a slightly different color. When I mirror finished them the strange graininess?? showed up even worse and was not acceptable. I've not had this problem with ATS before. I had to go back and put a satin finish on those to camouflage the defect, and even now you can still see it somewhat through a 600 grit hand satin finish.

Kind of disgusting to get this when you've put the time into the blade to get that far. If I'd known sooner I would have thrown the whole lot in the garbage.

Thanks

I have bought Cold Rolled from Sheffields, and I get the swirlies with it. I haven't had a problem with warpage, though. I think the Hot Rolled is the way to go for a cleaner look.

You can sand and sand and sand and sand......
Those swirls WON'T go away.
I do believe it is the cold rolling process that does it.
I didn't have the warping problem but those swirls are something else.
I swore if it ever happened with the hot rolled stuff, I would change over to 154CM instead.
So far I'v never had that problem with the hot rolled stuff.

Thanks guys. That was the first cold rolled I've used in 20 years and I guess I learned a valuable lesson. I've only got 30 blades made from it. It's certainly a strange effect isn't it ?

Steve,Those swirls look like the alloys were being pushed out of the mixture during the roll op.
I had a double edged dagger that almost looked like damascus steel because of all the swirls.
I thought I got the H.T.cycle too hot at first, then the second batch did the same thing.
I thought I was going CRAZY!

I called Admiral Steel(the suppliers), and they said it was not the H.T., but the manufacturing process.

It hurts to put that much work into something you don't want to sell.Esspecially if it wasn't you're fault.

Another expensive lesson to share!

BE BLESSED!

I've never used it, but it sounds kind of like the 440-C plate that Harvey Draper once had.

It looked kind of like D-2 when polished. Not really "ugly," but definately different from HRAP 440-C.

Thanks for the discussion, guys.

Ats-34 and 440-C cold roll can have pressure marks at times that will look like wood graining. All the 1/16 and 3/32 stock I've used in the past was cold rolled and it all had what I refered to as pressure marks of some kind. It sure can be ugly if you're not expecting it. A long time ago I purchased a 24" square of Ats-34 in 5./32" that was cut that size and I was told was for a lazer table cuting application. It too had graining and I assumed it was cold rolled also. I don't know if that still holds true for present day lazer table sheet stock. Frank.

Thanks for the input Frank. I can assure you it holds true for present day sheet stock.

I have sent a letter to Admiral Steel regarding this and they were not too receptive. They claim they have not had this problem before and kind of alluded that perhaps it was just a cloudiness or something. I sent a followup e-mail to them further explaining the appearance and the procedures I used to finish the blades. I explained that I had concurently finished blades from another source that were ground along side of, went through the heat treatment with, and were finished with the blades in question and they came out just fine. I've been mirror polishing blades for 20 years and know what it should look like.

I am sending two blades to them for examination- one mirror finished and one had rubbed satin 400 grit finish. I even tried going back to a 320 finish (which is too course for a good satin finsh) and you can still see the graininess.

If anyone else has had this problem, I would appreciate it if you would let me know. It may help when Admiral Steel claims this hasn't happened before and it must be my fault if I can point out that other makers have seen the same thing.

Thanks for your help.

Schuyler

Schuyler,I have had this problem with some 440c that I got from Fry Steel years ago.It was made by Daiwo in Japan.I also had this same problem with ats-34 that I got from another knifemaker,when I asked him where he got it,he said Admiral Steel,I guess thats why he sold it to me so cheap.I was talking to Butch Beaver once on this very subject,and he stated that,he would'nt buy from Admiral any more because of this problem,so this did not start recently,and I have to think that Admiral has been aware of this for some time,as many makers have brought it to their attention.

It seems Admiral steel tries to side step problems rather than meeting them head on and correcting them. One maker I know received Ats-34 from them that was sheared lenghth wise. Of course this shouldn't be a problem except that after having to clean up the rounded edge he lost 3/16" in wideth. I guess this wasn't anything to get concerned about either. Why they just wouldn't believe you like just about all suppliers would is just foolish. I believe it also indicates that they sure don't know their product very well especially since I know that pressure marks are commonly part of cold rolled steel. Frank.

Guys-

All suppliers have occasional problems, and Admiral is no exception. They do care, however. They have offered to pay the freight and replace steel with which I have had problem, and asked that the questionable piece be returned so they could get to the root of the problem. Contact Terry Summers if you run into a quality problem; he really does want to know.

Thanks, everyone. Sometimes a lot of problems will be taken care of by one person who knows what he's doing and cares about his customers.

Bruce Divita at Crucible took care of my S60V, a.k.a., 440V request after two other guys insisted that there was nothing they could do to help me.

Glad to know there is such a guy at Admiral.

I was reading a thread on Friday, where somebody claimed that the Admiral ATS is plate, not bar, and is nowhere near the same stuff that Sheffield sells, I've been making knives as a hobby for 10 years, buyer from SKS or TKS, but just discovered the internet in the last couple of months. Didn't even know Admiral existed until a month ago. Seeing the price difference between SKS and Admiral, I was all fired up to go buy a whole bunch of cheap steel, but this has backed me off. Aint no such thing as a free lunch.

Is it just me but it seems like the few times I've bought from Admiral Steel the prices were quit reasonable but the shipping price is higher than usual. Just curious, may be that I buy more than normal when I deal with them. Has any one else got any of their L-6 or 52100. Times that I have normalized the L-6 it looks like it has a candy bar wrapper on it. The carbon is all fluffy and in sheets. I was at Oregon Knife Show weekend before last and the guy next to me worked only with L-6 and said he'd never seen that. They have it listed as having: C .75 Mn .70 Si .25 Cr .80 Nic 1.5 Mo.50
Crucible has it listed and the alloys are the same except they don't show the manganise or the silicone.
Ray

I havent worked with ATS 34 yet, but I got a supplie of chipper blades and forged a bowie from one of them. I was told that the blades were L-6 but had an almost wood like grain stucture after heat treat.

I normaly diferentialy harden and etch to show temper line.
that's when the patern showed up.

They acted like L-6 except for the patern and was begining to wonder just what kind of steel it was.

guess they are cold rolled too.

My, my, my, am I ever happy to see this post!!!!!!!! I bought some Hot Rolled ATS34 steel from Sheffields about a month ago. Made up about thirty five blades and went to polish them and got these "inclusions" ( I have been told they are called). Looks kind of like a finger print on the steel surface. But no matter how much you grind, they are still there. I sand blasted the finish on all of them. I was lucky they were all fighters. ATS34 has been getting real sloppy lately, in my opinon. I hope it is not getting like 154CM did. I would hate to switch to another steel. I got some steel from Ardimral one time and that was enought for me. I do not deal with those people. The thing that frustrates me is like Steve said, you put all this time in the blades and don't know these are there until you start to polish. At that point you have a bunch of time and expence in the blade!! I sure do hope they get it fixed soon. I have some sub-hilt fighters I have to make in full polish, and I am scared to go with ATS34 right now. But, you know what? I bet the sun will come up tomorrow morning. It ain't the end of the world, but it sure is frustrating. Take care, Mark

Frustration is the word for it!

Loveless and I even had the same problem, to a lesser degree, perhaps, with the early 154-CM. It, I am afraid, is just one of the things we have to deal with. Sometimes it's just a matter of luck, good and bad.

I have had a number of bad experiences with ATS-34 from Admiral. I think there are a couple things going on. For one thing I got some dirty material, having bubbles or inclusions within the steel that I think reflects Hitachi quality problems. The other is the general graininess resported - that orange peel look when you polish it. This may in fact have two sources. One is that ATS-34, unlike 154CM is rolled in just one dimension so there is a definite linear grain to the steel. The second is that the Admiral material is shear plate, and is in fact sheared as opposed to sawn, water jet or laser cut. That may induce shock related artifacts in the steel. Crucible cross rolls 154CM, rolling it once in one direction then rotating it 90 degrees and rolling again, so the grain is generally reduced and the linearity is removed.

I have found 154CM to be much cleaner and it is sawn to size, not sheared.

All that said, if you want really fantastically clean and an almost liquid appearance when polished, try RWL-34 from Sweden. Steve mentioned this some months ago; I tried it and found it is well worth the trouble and expense if a perfect mirror is your goal. It's a powder metallurgy version of ATS-34 with a dash (0.2%) Vanadium which aids in grain reduction as well as a bit of additional wear resistance. Great stuff.

As Steve observed, I found that Bruce DiVita at Crucible Steel is a great guy and very helpful. Bruce is THE man at Crucible for knife steel.

Lots to this issue, and I'm sure this all just scratches the surface.

Tahnks for the input, Jerry.

I have no complaints with the usual bar-stock ATS-34. Most suppliears have it.

I have a piece o fo new 154-CM in the shop that I'm going to try. I'm getting a request for it inow and then. I'm sure it'll be nice stuff. I'll report w hen I get one finished.

It was good to see you in Orlando, along with those cute little knives ground with the 1" (or less?) wheel. You are definately younger than me, those little grinds are the proof!

Ray,

I just ordered a bunch of L-6 from Admiral but haven't used any yet. I'm just starting out knife making and thought it would be a good steel to use. Were your defects in the L-6 visible when the knife was finished? Could someone also explain to me what normalizing is?

Thanks,

Shawn

Here's a start. You forgers can probalby be much more enlightening. Thanks for any comments you might have.

Normalizing:
A Process in which an iron-base alloy is heated to a temperature above the transformation range and subsequently cooled in still air at room temperature.

Another definition: Normalizing is a process which involves heating steel to slightly above the hardening temperature, soaking it at this temerature and cooling to room temperature in air. Normalizing relieves internal stresses due to machining, forging and cold working. It removes all previous effects due to heat treatment. Normalizing also softens hardened steel and improves its machinability. However it does not result in the uiformity and degree of sortness which is produced by full annealing. The grain structure of normalized seel is generally somewhat harder, less ductile, and has a finer pearlitic grain structure that full annealed steel.

Sounded like "Stress Relieving" to me. Here's a definition for that:

Stress Relieving:
A process to reduce internal residual stresses in a metal object by heating the object to a suitable temperature and holding for a proper time at that temperature. This treatment may be applied to relieve stresses induced by casting, quenching, normalizing, machining, cold working or welding. This is done by heating to a temperature slightly below the lower critical temperature.

Read this about annealing, which sheds a bit more light on the subject:

Annealing:
A term denoting a treatment, consisting of heating to and holding at a suitable temperature, followed by cooling at a suitable rate, used primarily to soften, but also to simultaneously produce desired changes in other properties or in microstructure. The purpose of such changes may be, but is not confined to, improvement of machinability; facilitation of cold working; improvement of mechanical or electrical properties; or increase in stability of dimensions. The time-temperature cycles used vary widely both in maximum temperature attained and in cooling rate employed, depending on the composition of the material, its condition, and the results desired. When applicable, the following more specific process names should be used: Black Annealing, Blue Annealing, Box Annealing, Bright Annealing, Cycle Annealing, Flame Annealing, Full Annealing, Graphitizing, Intermediate Annealing, Isothermal Annealing, Process Annealing, Quench Annealing, and Speroidizing. When the term is used without qualification, full annealing is implied. When applied only for the relief of stress, the process is properly called stress relieving.

OK ,you guys, straighten us out, please.

How about starting a new thread for this subject?

pub42.ezboard.com/fcustom...D=96.topic (http://pub42.ezboard.com/fcustomknifedirectoryforumfrm5.showMessage?topicID =96.topic)

Steve, I'll be 61 next month. I'll bet I'm not younger than you... :)

I don't recall have any trouble with the hot rolled bar stock in ATS-34 that I got from the knifemaking supply dealers. The problem I had was in getting it in anything larger than 1-1/2" widths. My Big knives need wide stock. That was why I tried Admiral, and what ultimately led me to Crucible. I get my 154CM by the half sheet and have it sawn into 4" strips, so I'm able to get good yield from the pieces. It sometimes makes for some thoughful bandsawing though.

Those blades you saw in Orlando were done on a 1" wheel, which is mostly just rough on the thumbs. I've been using a 2" wheel in the past couple weeks and that works a lot better (meaning less painful). For narrow swedges and double grinds it really gives nice deep grinds and crisp grind lines.

Yer lookin' at 53 here in Oct. Hey, I hide my age well!

Glad to hear the news about 154-Cm. I'm making one from it soon to give it a try. The cost, Inoticed in some cat., was actually a bit lower than ATS-34 in the same cat.

I'm looking for some2" ATS, 154 or RWL-34, myself. Preferrably in 5/16, but I'll probably have to go with 1/4". Those "Biggest Bear" sub-hilts take quite a chunk of iron. 'Course nothing like your big guys.

I'd rather grind with a 2' wheel than a 1' also.

Thanks, Jerry