Do you grind sitting, or standing?

With Hibben, Draper and Chappel, I always stood up. Loveless showed me that sitting was easier, you get more control, and can make the grinder do what you want it to do easier, if you're sitting. You can also rest your elbows on your knees/legs for more stability. Or even against your sides.

You need the grinding wheel to be at the right height, so that you're in a natural sitting position, or it can get tiring, well, it does get tiring, but it's better if you're as comfortable as possible.

If my little camera will take a shot, that you can see, I'll have Bob post a pic of my cast iron dump rake seat and grinder. Sure, there's a story behind that iron seat.....

Steve-

I stand, because that's what has worked for me so far. I had a heck of a time figuring out grinder height, but I had never been to another maker's shop to see how they had their's set up at that point either.

Mine is at belly button height while standing.

I wanted to mount mine on a drill press column with the rack and pinion set-up...so I could change it's height easily, yet have a solid base... but I couldn't find one to use. It's almost as expensive to buy that much from a supplier as the whole #### machine.

If you say sit, I should try it :)

Nick

Nothing wrong with trying something new. Let me know how it works. Might take a bit of getting used to. I feel that it is easier on the back to sit, or stand upright, so the wheel needs to be at the hight that will allow that. Same goes for the work bench and vise, buffer, etc. Bending becomes painful in time.

I like the adjustable height idea. It is sometimes difficult to make an idea work when you have to buy parts. Maybe a used machinery dealer would have an old drill press that has a good stand?

I sit...I like the controll I get. When I made the grinder I designed it so I can vary the hight so I can stand also.

It might be variation.

There was an experiment a few years back on productivity, Are workers more productive if they have music to listen to or if it is quiet? The results were interesting. What was found was that when a quiet workplace introduced music there was increased productivity for about 4-6 weeks and then it went back to the basic status quo. When a workplace that played music went quiet, they had the same results. It wasn't the music or silence that made the difference it was the variation. Some of these factories started one month of music and one month of quiet and they found that they increased their productivity by doing so. Variation was the key.

I don't know if this applies to standing or sitting while grinding, but you may just want to try an experiment.

Thanks, Jerry.

You know, when I grind, I plug in the stereo, put on the earmuffs and go to it. It helps to have the music, especially if you can burn a disk of your favorites.

I don't know about production, but a disk full of tunes you love, and want to hear, keeps me in that iron seat longer.

Maybe standing for a while would speed me up...

What can I say, my friends insist that I am a font of useless trivia. :) and I am!

Ok Steve, now the suspense is killing me!!!
What is the story behind the Iron Seat????
Inquiring minds want to know. :)
Mike

I stand, and usually prefer standing for most everything I do (OK, don't get smart, now).

When I consider that most of my shop aprons are retired because they 1) have a hole ground into the belly area from working too close to the belt and 2) often have the frayed edges catch fire once they are very worn, I'm thinking that grinding while sitting could be a problem for me. It would also be more difficult for doing large blades like swords where I depend on my ability to sway with the motion. Grinding a big sword is like Tai Chi exercises for me.

Jerry O: All trivia is useful, to someone. Kind of like my knives....

Mike: The old cast iron dump rake seat came from my Dad's farm, before he passed away at 92. (They're quite the collecotr's item these days. ) Bob Johnson used to be known as "Plow." This was because he'd go out to the farm at sunrise, with his lunch, consisting of a baked potato, and plow , behind the horses, until dark. This would continue until the work was done, which was all spring, and all fall. When the riding implements became available, it was a lot nicer, I'm sure, than walking all the time. Anyway, that old seat reminds me of Dad and what a hard worker he was. Sometimes it shames me into "gettin' on the stick," when I'd rather goof off. If I'd work like he did, I'd be retired now!

Jerry H: I can see what you mean. Grinding a "sheleli" (sp), as my Dad would call those big knives of yours, would require much more movement and range of motion than a dropped hunter. Even a Big Bear-type is a "bit" too much of a reach for sitting, but it works for me. I straddle my dust intake, so the burned holes in my aprons are not a problem.

For me, anyway, we are now getting to the real crux of the issue. I stand, because I have a 5 gallon bucket of water directly under the contact wheel. If I had a "dust intake" there like Steve, I would be very much incliined to try sitting.

Steve, can you tell us about your dust collector? Does it exhaust outside, or into a drum of water, or what? The only time I can use a dust collector (read, "shop vac") is when I am slack-belt grinding handles; then i can put a dust intake under the grinder. Grinding steel, however, the sparks would melt the vacuum hose - or set the vac on fire.

I have the bucket to the side of the duct work on one machine. It is strapped to the stand, as it sits solidly on some cinder blocks. Then I have a little gallon bucket of water on a wheeled cart next to the other grinder. No problem in using either machine. I use 3" aluminum duct-work for the vacuum system.

Get the duct work, straights, "T's," elbows and flex sections, at one of those great home improvement stores and just duct tape it together. Tack it to the wall with those plastic ties with a sheet rock screw holding it up. Might be good to make it a downhill slope to the collector from the machines.

I have 3 inlets in the same line and just cover the unused ones with cardboard when I'm grinding into one of them. Two to the grinders and one to the buffer. I have a Torit self-contained dust collector and it works pretty well. The dust goes into a catch pan at the base of the box which holds the fan. It exhausts into the shop. Have thought of shooting it outside, but there goes the cool air in the summer and the warm air in the winter from the shop.

They have an optional, on the cheaper model, stack silencer, which drastically reduces the noise. I put the box in my assy. room and then it's not too noisy in the grinding room. The noise level isn't really that bad anyway. Perhaps with the silencer, when I can afford it, I'll move the box into that room. Might be more efficient that way, closer to the machines and all. P.S. Buy your dust collector in a town other than the one, up north, in Utah, where I got mine, since they haven't the foggiest idea what "customer service" means. That was in 1994, though. Maybe new people by now.....

I'd get the bigger model next time, if I could afford it. This one gets the light stuff, but the floor has lots of the bigger, heavier dirt on it in front of the grinder & buffer. Ricardo Velarde has a larger model with the silencer, maye he can report. Or, anyone else who has a dust system that works, or doesn't?

I've never had any concerns, or problem with fire. I haven't, yet, ground titanium, but will be doing so. And...will not use the dust collector when I do. Hope this is of help.

P.S. Bob (Dogman) said he'd post 2-3 photos re. above tonight.

Steve, this is a big help. Do you remember the model number of the Torit system you bought, and the approximate cost?

I have to do something soon. Not just to allow me to sit down to grind, but to keep the peace. My shop is right next to my wife's laundry room, and a layer of black silt in there is most unwelcome.

I sweep the floor (and pick up the dust with a long-handled magnet) several times in the course of a day of grinding, but there is a fine blanket of dust over everything, including my computers (which are in a separate room with the door closed).

I know that there is no perfect solution, but the shop vac and water bucket approach leaves much to be desired. Any help is much appreciated.

In the MSC book they list the 64 at $2091, on page 1229. Get help lifting that book around! I paid $1678 in 1994 for a model "60 CAB". They also have a 64DST for $1565. Maybe this is mine. They also have a cartridge filter version fo rmore money. I guess it was worth it, I don't have cancer yet. My grinding room is MUCH, MUCH cleaner than it was in my old shop, where all I had was a squirrel cage blowing the dust out the window. You can still see that these walls are white! They were pretty much black back then in that old room.

They list a model 84 (much more volume) at $2906. Like I said, mine could be biggger, but for another $800+? I don't know...

Check them out locally, maybe you can luck into a used one. These are made for industrial applications and aren't just the wood dust collectors that some use, with more risk of fire.

Look for my photos to be posted tonight.

Thanks very much, Steve. As much as I'd love to add another grinder to the shop, I think this is going to have to come first.

You guys, this is probably the best addition I have done to my shop. Not having it was a limiting factor for my production during the winter months.
Here is the information for the Torit Dust Collectors.
Donaldson Company.
Torit Products.
1=800-365-1331
www.torit.com
What you want is the Cabinet dust collector.
The two larger ones are models #81 and #84. One has a 1.5 hp and the other ones has a 3 hp. motor.
they will run about $2500.00 to $3000.00.
These two machines will run about 1071 to 1231 cfm with a 6" hose.
Their suggestion about sparks into the hose was to have at least a 12' hose to let the sparks cool off.
With the silencer it only sounds like a refrigirator.
Still with mine I get some of those"big" pieces of steel on the ground, but those are not the ones I am worrie about.
Whatever you spend on one of these machines is worth it for your health.
Ricardo Velarde

I guess I really got lucky. Last year at my real job, they were rearranging the fabrication area and reducing some of the excess equipment and i got a 3 hp Torit for the grand total of the price of the gas to haul it home. I had to change out the motor as it was 3 phase and clean it up as it was used on a commercial radial metal cutting saw and was pretty gunky from the coolant mist used on the saw, but it works like a charm now. Like the saying goes, I'd rather be lucky than good. :)
Mike

You can always figure, Don, that if you choose the dust system over the new grinder, you might be around a while to USE the next grinder that you get, whenever that may be. Your lungs, and life, are worth 2-3K. Your wife's clean laundry room is easily worth holding off on the grinder.
Get one of the bigger capacity machines, if you can. With the silencer.

Mike, that sounds like the kind of deal we all wish we could run into. Glad you were there at the right time and...that you valued your health enough to see the need and jump at the opportunity. Smart move!

Steve's set up:
http://www.srjknives.com/images/grinder.jpg
View of the cast iron tractor seat and duct work for the 1.5 hp Bader.

http://www.srjknives.com/images/grinder2.jpg
Showing both grinders, including the duct work, and the small water bucket, (L) on the cart, and the 5 gal. bucket for the older 2 hp Bader (R).

http://www.srjknives.com/images/torit.jpg
A shot of the Torit/Donaldson dust collector, on the other side of the wall from the 2 hp Bader.
THANK YOU, DOGMAN FOR POSTING THE PICS! Not that bad of an image for an $80 digital camera the kids gave me for Father's Day, huh?

I sit, btw, have an adjustable desk chair with rollers so I can scoot around the shop when grinding and I need to grab something. Can also spin in circles when I get too bored. Or hop up and down on the springy piston. Whee..... :rollin:

But about dust collectors:

On the less expensive side I bought a DC3-5XL portable dust collector from Penn State Industries ( www.pennstateind.com (http://www.pennstateind.com) ) it is 850 cfm and comes with a 5 micron dust bag. I placed it in my garage and the hose comes through the wall into my shop; the noise from the motor / fan is non-existent although the suction noise isn't too quiet. I have a 'metal collection grate,' also from Penn State and I simply place it near the grinder. It collects nearly everything and only cost me a total of $207.00 plus shipping. They also have a stand for $55.00 that would allow for versatile placement of the collector.

For added cleanliness I bought a 465 cfm air cleaning system that gets 98% of 3 micron particles and 60% of the .5 microns. It was $199.00.

So for $450.00 I got a -very- clean shop.

One day I'd love a bigger unit with more power for lots of ductwork, but for now, starting out, I don't think this combo from Penn State can be beat.

Sounds great. Do you need a water trap between the grinder and the collection bag, to avoid spark problems?

Are the ducts plastic or metal?

How does the metal collection grate work? Interesting....

Anything that saves a few hundred bucks sounds super, as long as it's as safe. The web page calls them wood working systems, is there a worry, again, with sparks?

Please, no offense intended, I'm just wondering about the possibility of combustion in the ducts or collection bag when grinding metal.

Thank you for the input.

The main worry is with combining wood dust and sparks.

If you have wood dust in the bag and start shooting sparks in there you can get a particulate explosion. What I have always intended to get is one of the dust separator lids ( again at Penn State but I've seen them elsewhere ) that fits onto a 30 gallon trash can lid to help diffuse the spark problem. It basically creates a poor man's cyclone- I also thought I might keep water in the bottom of the trash can. I considered a gooseneck water trap as well but figured it would be too small and just get clogged and a fire would start on top of everything anyway.

But so far, with only eight feet of flexible hose between grinding and the bag I have had no problems... I do empty the bag after using it for wood or other flammables... or excessive amounts of metal filings, since they burn too.

If you can vent directly outside you needn't worry about the bag at all, but here in the Winter when it's 10 below you don't want to do that...

I don't have any ductwork at this point, but I plan on using as much metal as possible - although I have not yet had a single prob with the plastic flexible hose. The grate is essentially a square funnel with a grate in front of the big end. I think mostly it makes a convenient thing to hold on to the end of the hose, but you can move it around and place it wherever you want. I put it in front of me when I hand finish, for example.

I got my advice here from Howard Clark, who swore by a Penn State Tempest Cyclone for metal grinding dust collection. I had big concerns about flammability issues too - his advice concerned mixing metal and wood dust as stated above and I can't say any -collection- system ( as opposed to venting w/o collection ) is going to be 100% prob free, but again, after eight months of use... no explosions yet.

Heh.

Good Luck!

Jonathan, thanks for such a complete report. Sounds like you're covering the bases, with plans to keep on covering them.

I appreciate your information and I'm sure that anyone who's contemplating a dust system (And I hope that's everyone who doesn't have one!) will benefit from your experiance and knowledge about them.

If we can get one maker to consider dust control we can be happy. But many would be better!

Good stuff!

Will be ordering my Torit system next week from MSC. Maybe it will help keep me alive long enough to make enough knives to buy that second grinder.

:cool:

When I get a shop that is big enough I will get a dustsystem.....hm..now I just need a job to be able to get that house.

A friend has just instealled a compleet system in his shop...costed him les than 1000 $ Worth it if you ask me!

Don, good decision. I'm sure your wife will appreciate it! Just keep on making those great knives in good health, OK?

Jens, maybe you can check out your friend's system and report on it. How well odes it work, how much air does it move, h.p. of motor, type of duct work, etc. If yo uhave the itme and he doesn't mind your asking.
Thanks, you two.

I will meet him next weekend and will ask him alot of questions! If he aswers them I will post here.

Don,

I went back to me Alma Mater this weekend and noticed that the sculpture studio has Torit cyclones. This room gets an absolutely incredible amount of metal/ wood/ plaster/ rock dust. And it is pretty near spotless- I think the Torit must be pretty solid if it stands up to Art School abuse.

What size / model, if I may ask?

Jon, the one I am getting is the $1600 one- I don't have the model number here with me- all it lacks is the noise suppressor, and I can live without that for another $500. It's going to make a very big difference in my shop.

Consider, seriously, the model bigger than mine, please. I think mine is the same as the Model 64DST. But...the bigger ones are alot more money, I know.

I also am a sitter..use to stand but as you get a bit older or if you have a bad back as I do, sittin is much easier on me, havin the grinder at the proper height helps also.

I ground a blade at Bob Doggett's shop this week and had to do it standing. I handled it, but missed my iron seat. He has a great shop there. I know what you mean about needing more stability with advancing years!

What a fun trip/visit that was!

Hey...I even got to meet Alex Whetsell....for abot 30 seconds.

I have an Oneida dust collector that I'm thinking about using. It is not their cyclone model but one they call the woodcarver model. I use it to collect dust from my wood lathe and it does fine. It is a large tin container (looks like a trash can) with a lid which contains the motor and a pleated paper canister filter like you would use on a diesel. Do any of you have thoughts as to whether or not it would be safe to use for metal? I'd like to use it if possible but I don't want to blow myself up or burn down my house.

Shawn

Not safe. Hot sparks, wood dust, and paper filters are a problem.

There is a gimmick you can make out of a covered cake pan that might let you use it, though. Cut two holes in the metal lid the diameter of your (metal) vacuum hose. Attach one hose to the funnel at the grinder, and another hose to the dust collector. Put the lid on the cake pan, with the pan half filled with water. The sparks will be quenched when they are sucked into the pan. High maintenance, but better than a fire.

Good advice, Don. Thak you. I've heard of dumping the dust into a partly water-filled barrel and then on to the collector.

Uou put one vacuum hose hole in the lid next to one edge of the lid, then another hole across the lid on the other edge. The metal dust comes in one side and drops to the water and some of the light dust continues out the other hole in the lid. I guess just about like the aforementioned method. But get some expert help on it, please, don't burn the shop down, OK?

I have a 3M airhelmet with a HEPA filter so that will protect my lungs fine. But I will eventually need a dust collector to keep the basement clean. Like Don previously mentioned, my wife's laundry room is also right next to my shop with no wall in between. Just trying to keep the peace. I will definitly get professional advice before I use a collector. Sounds like it's a water bucket under the grinder for now.

Shawn

I'm just thinking that there is a right way to modify a wood-dust system to allow it to work with metal. However, this might not be possible, so we'd best be careful what we do and how we do it. Glad you're going to check it out completely.

Don, how's the new system working, or do you have it installed yet? Yesterday, we moved my vacuum box from the assembly room into the grinding room, and it doesn't seem too noisy, even that close to the grinders. Thinking that it might be more effiecient if it was closer to the grinders and buffer.

Steve, I have had some unexpected expenses in the form of plane tickets and car rentals that have kept me from ordering yet. I hope to be able to do so in the nex couple of weeks, though, and I do plan to put the main box within a few (6-:cool: feet of the grinder. I am very sure that it will work out fine.

Boy, do I know what you mean, Don. Good luck on getting it, whenever you can. It'll help.

After working some today, in the grinding room with the Torit unit in the same room, I don't find it to be a big deal. It's no louder than the Bader Bench Model I'm running while grinding blades to outline.

O.K.,

I feel a little stupid but I'm going to bear my shame with pride...

Last night I had an explosion in the filter bag. I'm going to start by saying that I wasn't following my own advice, which is to include at least a four foot drop and a dust separator ( cyclone ) with water in the bottom ( cyclone ). I was taking an unnecessary shortcut and being lazy and moved my 'portable,' filter to the new grinder set-up instead of waiting and setting it up the right way.

I'm pretty sure what happened was that the small filings from a 220 grit belt built up on the platen into a small mass which caught fire and then went down into the pipe, so it didn't extinguish like a spark would.

Even if you are smarter than me ( which didn't take much last night... ) KEEP THAT FIRE EXTINGUISHER UP TO DATE!

Just last month I replaced the old one on an annual basis and when I checked it to see if it worked... it didn't. That replacement saved my *ss.

No damage save little bits of filter bag everywhere...

Thanks for your openness with us. We all need to learn from your report.

BE CAREFUL OUT THERE, GUYS and GALS!!

Short cuts are usually through rough terrain.

Thks again.

Mr Johnson,

You said that you got your system from MSC. Who is MSC?
Do they have a web site or an 800 number?

Thanks in advance for the info!!!!

Bob Sigmon

www.mscdirect.com (http://www.mscdirect.com)

Thank you, Dogman. Will check it out right now.

Bob Sigmon

They've been good for supplies. Just got back from my uncle's funeral in Spokane. A wonderful man.

Thanks for the help Bob. Cool signature!

Just a thought. Be sure to empty the tray periodically and shake or clean the filters like every day.

Anything to report yet, Don? Did you take the plunge? Just anxious to see how it affected the laundry room. We're all on your wife's side! Of course yours, too!

Steve, I am still beset with unanticipated expenses, and I noticed that the new MSC catalog has a price increase of almost $200. It is still my next purchase- just have to get paid for a couple of knives, and I'll do it.

Let's pass a law that sas ythere can be no more unanticipated bills, or even anticipated ones!

I know how that goes, Don. Sorry for being so nosey.....

Not nosy at all, Steve. My daughter's husband was stricken with leukemia a couple of months ago (he's in the Air Force in Washington DC), and is in Bethesda hospital, unable to work (or get paid). My wife and I have flown to Washington to be with him, my daughter, and my grandchildren, and now, in the absence of her husband's income, my daughter needs some serious help with her financial obligations. All these things add up to postponing the dust collector for now.

We're all very sorry to hear that, Don. I'm sure we willall remember your son-in-law in our prayers. He has some great in-laws, it appears to me, and I'm sure he and your daughter are thankful for you and the love you show their family.