View Full Version : First Question: Soldering?


CKDadmin
12-18-2000, 11:30 PM
Archive ... When asked by members ...

As I'm working on an article on soldering for KI, I won't go into a lot of deatail, but Eutecrod 157 is one key ingredient, as well as their 682 flux. 157 flux may be ok, never used it, since 1971-ish, since I've been happy with 682. Now Staybrite must work ok, too, since many makers use it. Temp control is a major factor, watch the flux for temp. indications and of course cleanliness is important. I'd say that temp. is the biggest cause of success and failure, too hot and you have problems. OK for now? As I said, I'm new at this. I answered once and lost it after I previeved it, so this won't be previewed, what yo see, mispellings and all, is what you get! Hope this is some some help. Drop a line if yo have nay specific q's. I think, also, that PRACTICE is essential. One day, early on, I spen 8 hrs. soldering TWO guards before they were "right."

Thanks, SR

CKDadmin
12-18-2000, 11:31 PM
Archive ... cntd.
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Tom Mayo (07-14-2000 01:35 a.m.):actually....after 18 years...i finally figured out how to solder..what I want to know is how you get it finished like that....with the perfect radius etc.....do you put on a lot and use a tool to remove any excess??? how do you avoid getting flux etch on the ricasso??? how do you get such a nice finish on the solder when youre done... I want to know the REAL inside scoop here!!!
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I apologize, Tom. I use what is called a "Bright Boy" disc on my Moto-tool that's been sharpened, running the disc on a piece of 100x wet/dry, to smooth out the solder fillet (sp). Then I tape of f the blade and use a sharp edged buffing wheel to get into the corner and polish it. Then I remove the tape and hit the blade, as little as possible, including the flux etch, and clean it up. Over buffing will pit & groove the blade.The flux etch just happens, I personally can't avoid it, but one can minimize it, as noted in my previous treatise, by watching, very carefully, the temperature and using as little flux as possible. "Course you know that already, having made knives for 18 yrs.Advise if I can offer any more comment.Last night I remembered that the last time I tried to buy "Bright Boy" discs, I couldn't find them. Cratex has bought them out and they don't make that exact item anymore, so I called the factory, got some samples, and it appears that their disc model number 80-P works well. It is a little finer than the old one I used to use, but works fine. It will cut the solder, but not scratch the blade, but watch the guard material.They said that they could re-make some of the old "Finetex 382" but I'd need to get a few billion, or something like that. You might be able to find some fo the old ones. I got mine, initially, from James Poplin, a supplier in Washington GA. Not able to contact him today, got a recording, "...no such number." If anyone can find any of the Finetex 382, save me 20 or 30, OK?
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S.R. "Steve" Johnson
www.srjknives.com (http://www.srjknives.com)

CKDadmin
12-18-2000, 11:33 PM
Archive ... cntd.

I still round my ricassos, but because I like the looks of them, but they might be a LITTLE easier to get the solder to flow, I agree.I cut a slot into my tangs for the guard to slide into. Be sure to round the corners, though.My guess would be that things are getting too hot, and maybe you're spending too much time with the high temp. That's just a guess. Get the solder on as soon as the flux "melts" and get it brushed into place with a little flux. Wipe the excess off with a Q-tip before it sets up.If I could only come to HI I'm sue that we could figure this out in your shop.

SRJ

RJ Martin
10-12-2001, 06:36 AM
Steve: Have used the 157 Solder, but would like to try the 682 flux. Can you please provide a source?
Also, I've had great success usine a piece of 1/8" nickel silver rod, beveled back about 45 degrees and mounted in a file handle to "shave" off the excess solder. This tool both cuts and burnishes, and won't scratch SS guards/bolsters or the blade. Cleanup on the buffer is a snap.

RJ Martin

srjknives
10-12-2001, 09:08 AM
First of all, how did the 157 flux work, or did you use that?

You can contact Eutectic USA @ 704 527 9800
They should be able to give you the name of a local supplier.

Their web site is: www.eutectic.com/ (http://www.eutectic.com/)
Email their welding product information rep @ AOsborn@eutectic-na.com

My tech. rep. says that 682 flux is available, as does the technical and customer service center at the number above.

The only problem is: They must ship it as a hazardous material, so there will be an added cost for shipping, and they ship them in a pack of three jars, 8 oz. each, for $67.30, plus a haz-mat charge of about $30-40 that the distributor tacks on. Therefore, one jar could run you $35 or so, if you can get one jar. The guy there agreed that 682 would be the flux to use for SS soldering.

They are presently trying to come up with a way to ship single jars.

Call them and see what they can do. Let us know how it goes, please.

Jim Small
10-12-2001, 08:39 PM
Steve

I have used Eutectic 1800PA for years. After 30 years of knife makeing and guard soldering I'm only on my second tub of Eutectic paste solder. Like everyone else it took what I considered forever to learn to do a good solder job. Knifemaker Michael Collins is the one who put me on to Eutectic paste solder many years ago. As far as I know he still uses Eutectic paste. As you are aware, the blade and guard have to be CLEAN.....Real Clean. I rough the area behind the guard with a Cratex abrasive wheel....even the cut out where the guard slips up and onto the blade. I do my own heat treating so I get some de-carb, so I have to pay particular attention to the de-carb formations on the blade.....roughing these areas up will normally do the trick.I make sure the guard is a real good fit. I apply the paste to the inside of the guard and slide it onto the blade. If the guard is a tight fit the solder is forced out of the front and back of the guard showing me the fit is good and I am now ready to apply the heat. One trick I learned some time back is to take a soft lead pencil and scribe a line about a 3/32" above the area infront of the guard on the choil. This graphite pencil line keeps the solder from over flowing onto the choil and also aids in the removal of the fulx. I have found that the Eutectic 1800PA flux in non-staining and is very easy to remove. I use very little solder on the joints....a little goes along way. Clean-up is simple I use the same method as you....sharp Cratex wheel and then polish with a knife edge felt wheel. Patience is the key to soldering a guard....I don't have to tell you, but to others having soldering problems..... it's important not to push your heat....slow heating goes along way.
Keep up these great topics...I'm still learning.
Jim

srjknives
10-13-2001, 12:30 AM
Thanks, Jim. My only problem with paste solder has been some bubbling, sometimes. I don't have that problem with the wire...and don't know why, either.

Good advice, also, on the heat. Slow is good. That's possibly why the heat gun works so well for me.

RJ Martin
10-13-2001, 09:48 AM
I have used the 157 solder and liquid flux, as well as Allstate Paste solder. I prefer a more viscous flux, rather than a thin liquid. While I am able to produce a nice looking fillet, I don't feel I am getting complete penetration into the joint. The "wet out" isn't too good. As I pin all my slotted guards, a lack of penetration is not a big issue, but, I get occasionally some discoloration over time due to trapped flux, which usually appears at the top of the guard-very annoying!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've experimented with a variety of surface preparation techniques, and clean up woth Acetone before soldering, but still have troubles.

Ideally, I'd like a wire solder with a flux that has the consistency of motor oil and will stay put as the heat is applied.

RJ Martin

srjknives
10-13-2001, 03:28 PM
Here's a big long commentary on soldering from page two, should you like to have a look:

pub42.ezboard.com/fcustom...D=10.topic (http://pub42.ezboard.com/fcustomknifedirectoryforumfrm5.showMessage?topicID =10.topic)

Mike Snody
10-13-2001, 10:42 PM
The first time I went to Edmund Davidsons house a couple of years ago there was an awful smell coming from the kitchen. He was boiling a turtle in one pot and several blades in another. I have been boiling my blades with soldered guards in baking soda and water every since. I leave them in for several hours. It seems to get all of the residual flux out of the joint. I use the paste flux inside the guard and add flux and solder to the joint when the heat gun gets every thing hot. Stroke the molten solder with a rod dipped in flux and burnish with a brass rod like RJ described.
Regards,
Mike Snody

srjknives
10-13-2001, 10:49 PM
Now why doesn't a boiled turtle in Edmund's kitchen surprise me? The boiling thing works, see link above. I only boil for about 5 min. but it really helps, I add a little dish soap.

Thanks for the tips.

Mike Snody
10-13-2001, 11:02 PM
Dont know how I missed the link. Great information.
Next time you see Edmund ask him to tell you about the seven kinds of meat in a turtle. Make sure you have a few hours!
Regards,
Mike Snody

RJ Martin
10-14-2001, 08:15 AM
Guys: I have done the baking soda trick. But, if there is trapped flux, then, there IS NO SOLDER in the joint. That just doesn't cut it for me!
But, after reading the link, my suspicion is that I have been overheating the joint. I'm gonna get me some of that 682 flux and have another go, with my heat gun this time instead of a torch.
I'll keep you posted. THANKS

RJ Martin

Jim Small
10-14-2001, 05:01 PM
Gentlemen
I've been boiling turtle and knives together for years...Rade Hawkins swears by it. The baking soda breaks down the cologen in the shell and a filmy oil floats to the surface. Not only does this oil stop the action of the left over flux oozing from freshly solder guards I use it to coat wooden knife handles...keeps them from shrinking. (WARNING).....Do not rub this turtle oil slime on Osick....If you do wear eye protection. A little bit of this stuff goes a long way.

Jim

SLKnives
10-15-2001, 07:54 AM
Hey,

Don't forget to tell RJ if you add a little possum to the knife/turtle mixture in the pot it doubles the strength of the resulting residual oil which subsequently penetrates the incompletely soldered guard joint, redistributes the solder evenly, and smooths the guard/blade joint so no burnishing is neccessary !

Lets not leave out any important "secrets" here.

Schuyler

RJ Martin
10-15-2001, 09:30 AM
Guys: Thanks... Just returned from scouring the back roads. Scraped up 2 possums and a snapping turtle, so, not only will I be eating good but my soldering is going to be perfect from now on.

RJ

dogman
10-15-2001, 09:10 PM
Posted for Mike Snody:
http://www.doggettcustomknives.com/pics/Edmund.jpg

Mike Snody
10-15-2001, 09:15 PM
Thanks Bob.

I wanted everyone to know "the man behind the turtle" Edmund Davidson.

He would be proud to know that other makers are boiling turtles and knives. Possum too.

Regards,
Mike Snody

srjknives
10-15-2001, 09:29 PM
You guys are one heck of a lot of help. You're also prejudiced. We got no possum and we got no turtles around here. If yer gonna post helpful hints, you ought to make sure thatwe ALL can use the tips, not just them southerners!

Well, you can just bet that I'll be bringing back more that stag and mammoth from Orlando next year!! There is ways around yer little game!

RJ Martin
10-19-2001, 06:19 AM
Guys: I spoke with my Eutectic rep the other day. He called the 157 flux "neutral", and highly recommended the 682 flux for Stainless, as it is a bit more aggressive.
Pricing is 3, 8 OZ bottles for about $64, with a $40 HAZMAT shipping surcharge.
Oh well, it's only money...
IF I get this stuff, anyone interested in buying some from me at the NY Show?


RJ Martin

SLKnives
10-19-2001, 09:03 AM
Randy,

Thanks for the follow-up with the rep. It sounds promising. I would love to get some from you, unfortunately I am not going to be in NY. Keep us informed of the results when you try it. If it works better, it is well worth it in my opinion.

You are right. It is only money- and you can always get more of that. Some things, like a better method of soldering stainless, are priceless!

If you don't get rid of your excess at the show, let me know, and I will gladly pay for a bottle, plus shipping, plus half the HAZMAT surcharge you had to pay to get it.

And Steve,

I feel real bad about the circumstances surrounding the bad fortune of your living where you do, and turtle and possum not being readily available there. However, since you are such a gentleman and unselfishly contribute so much expertise and time here to help others (this part is genuine) we will let you in on the "rest of the story" regarding the secret ingredients of knife boiling.

Shhh, but you can substitute badger for possum. That's the easy part. Now the hard part. What can you substitute for turtle?? Well, us in the know, only know of one thing that will work- and thats Bigfoot (Sasquatch) toenails!! And I know for a fact you have Bigfoot in your neck of the woods. Turns out it's a little known fact that the same proteins that are the effective ingredient that chemically combines with the possum (or badger) fat to make the active ingredient that cures the flux problem are present in the carapace of turtles. Just don't ask me how I know that. What I don't know, is how you are going to talk a bigfoot out of some toenail clippings, if indeed they do clip their toenails. If not, I guess you'll have to catch one in a very sound sleep. Good luck. And, if you happen to get more than you need...

There, the whole secret's out. I feel better now.

Schuyler

srjknives
10-19-2001, 09:14 AM
I'll bet, if you contact a supplier that they'll obtain the 682 flux and solve all your problems as far as getting it goes. I think that Poplin may have even had some once. The Eutectic man told Bob and I back in 1971 or 1972 that 682 would be the way to go and it's worked pretty good since then.

The Sasquatch does hibernate, doesn't he? So....getting the toenails will not be a problem. All I have to do is find one of them fellers fast asleep. Thanks, I knew you'd come through for us guys out here where possum and turtle are scarce. We do have the desert tortoise, but you'd be safer cutting toenails off an awake Sasquatch than going up against the Southern Wilderness Alliance and actually "killing" a turtle! Or.... can you boil the shell without hurting the turtle?

RJ Martin
10-19-2001, 01:34 PM
Steve: Looking back to your post-you were given the same info as me. They only sell in 3 jar orders, and, when I get it, I'll figure a way to get a jar to you-perhaps at the ECCKS show in March (which is practically "next week"!). Maybe we can trade for some solder-From Eutectic, you had to buy like $300 worth.
You've been using the stuff for years, right?

RJ

srjknives
10-19-2001, 11:57 PM
I am in good shape for flux. my tech. had a can. Solder, I purchased in 1977 and have a yard or so left. I guess. I could bring you a foot, maybe.

RJ Martin
10-31-2001, 07:14 AM
Guys: The 682 Flux arrived yesterday. I bought 48 OZ., (6 bottles), because the hazmat charge was the same as for just 24 OZ.
This weekend, I'm gonna get out the heat gun and try the stuff out. I'll post again and let you know how it works out.


RJ Martin

srjknives
10-31-2001, 05:22 PM
We'll be anziously awaiting your impressions, RJ. Hope it all goes well. Remember to watch that flux and as it crystallizes, and then liquifies again, it's "at temperature."

William
11-03-2001, 10:29 PM
Has anybody soldered bronze befor? I have soldered yellow brass, red brass, nickle silver, mild steel, and stainless.

I normaly get a fairly neat joint with little clean-up. Not this time though!

I use silver solder and some non-corosive flux that I got in a pawn shop cheap. I got enough to last several years and have had very good luck, no pits and flowes the solder very well on everything but bronze.

Is bronze just hard to solder or am is it the moon?

srjknives
11-05-2001, 11:59 PM
Not me, sorry. Bet someone has though.

lottforgenbladeworkz
12-10-2001, 09:40 PM
jb weld added to the joint...wiped smooth and flush..
hardened... looks like the best solderjoint going....
not advocating not soldering...just offering an alternitive
that may have its place in your life someday....

srjknives
12-11-2001, 11:49 AM
JB Weld might give a better looking joint than some I've done!

Sorry I'm not of any help.

mlovett
12-10-2006, 12:02 AM
Steve ask me to post this. I've been playing around with a couple ideas lately. They seem to be working. The first, and one Steve has been trying, was fond totally by accident. I have been using the Non abrasive formula of Fast Orange hand cleaner to clean the compound of blades, and guards for a couple of years now. It does a great job. I have always followed with dish soap, and then denatured alcohol, or acetone. in the shop before soldering. I noticed recently just how oddly the water beaded after the cleaning with fast orange. So I tried soldering directly after the fast orange. Whoa! I have never had solder flow so well on stainless. It was very east to get it to flow all the way around the guard, with very little if any additional solder. I just put the solder on at the base of the recasso, and capillary action pulled it all the way around the joint. In several follow up usages, it has been very predictable. Much like soldering brass or Nickel silver when using the fast orange first. Rather than the usual soda boil only, with the cleaning properties, and acid killing properties of F/O, I cleaned the joint both front and back before and after the boil. Now for the second acorn. I've been using a fantastic oil on my 1911, that was developed for full auto weapons in sand land. The military was having trouble in the harsh environment, with many failures with weapons. Mostly due to the fine sand getting into everything. A new product (then) was developed, tested, and used to combat this. It is called FP-10. It uses Bucky Ball technology. What this basically means, is that the lubrication doesn't mierly cote the metal parts, but can actually penetrate metal, and bond on a molecular level. When the lube has dried, even wiped down, it remains to lube the parts. Well, why not try it in a solder joint. After soldering, I have been putting the FP-10 on th efface, and rear of the guard, and hanging it in th the shop for 24 hours before assembling. I simply use a paper towel to soak up any excess then wipe down with alcohol before assembling. I was being plagued with out gassing of flux fumes. I haven't sees any discoloration on a guard face since using the FP-10. So far, it is very promissing. It is sold at gun stores , and marketed by shooters choice. Hope this can put the old boog-a-boo's of soldering Stainless-on Stainless behind us all. Mike Lovett http://www.lovettknives.com/

Charles Vestal
12-10-2006, 07:52 PM
Thanks Mike for the tips.
Looks like I'm going to have to go shopping.
Is the Fast Orange the trade name of the hand soap or is it Go-Jos orange hand cleaner?

Thanks Again
Charles

Steve
12-11-2006, 12:49 PM
That's the trade name for the hand cleaner.

I've soldered maybe 5-6 guards using Fast Orange as a cleaner and it definitely makes a difference. Solder flows easier and smoother. Makes it "almost fun!"

Thanks, Mike for sharing this great tip. I really like the difference it makes. Life is good-er!

Going to try the FP-10, too.


Here's a photo:
http://www.imperialinc.com/img/4211.jpg

It comes in as small a sizes as 7 oz., mine is 15 oz. THE ONES WE HAVE ARE THE "SMOOTH" VERSION, WITHOUT PUMICE.
You can get it from an auto parts or machine-shop supply store, I'm sure. Or go online.
Here's one source, for a 7.5 oz. bottle, at about $10 including shipping:
http://www.ipstool.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=23108

Charles Vestal
12-11-2006, 07:14 PM
Thanks Steve

Anything that makes soldering stainless gaurds "almost fun" has to be a good product.

I'll stop by the auto parts store after work and pick up some of this miracle elixir.

Take Care
Charles

Steve
12-12-2006, 12:07 AM
Two more today, all went well. (Now..... you can't very often say that about soldering, at least I can't! Ever since Mike suggested this step, it's worked well.)

My auto parts store had to order me some in, it was only a day wait, though.

Charles Vestal
12-12-2006, 06:50 AM
Steve
About six or seven years ago I e-mailed you asking how to solder stainless gaurds, and your response helped a whole lot.

Its nice to have so many knifemakers willing to share their methods of all aspects of making knives.

Thanks Too All
Charles

Steve
12-12-2006, 10:14 AM
I'm happy it was of some help, Charles. I surely do want to thank Mike for this tip.

We all get help now and then and I am greatly indebted to many makers, collectors, writers, purveyors, etc., for their support and ideas throughout the years. Life is extra good with a little help from your friends! Merry Christmas to everyone who visits this forum!

Steve
12-12-2006, 11:38 PM
Johnny Young just dropped by the shop and we both agreed that this Fast Orange stuff is great for cleaning your hands after handling that dyed stag. You know, they're all red afterwards? Well, this cleans it off like a champ Thanks again, Mike. Nice hand cleaner to have around the shop, wehther one is soldering or not!

mlovett
12-22-2006, 03:42 PM
Glad its working. 10 bucks for a bottle? Ouch. I'm getting it at one of the local dollar store for 2.00 . for a 15 oz. bottle. Oddly enough, the auto parts stores all carry the pumice version only. I've had the chance of using the fp-10 quite a bit lately. I have not seen any out gassing since using it. Keeping my fingers crossed. MERRY CHRISTMAS Every One. Mike and Manuela

Steve
12-22-2006, 07:38 PM
It surely pays to look around, that's for sure. Thanks, Mike and Merry Christmas, too, to everyone!

Charles Vestal
02-18-2007, 07:34 AM
Well I finally had a chance to use the Fast Orange before soldering a gaurd.
It worked great, solder flowed well no gaps, I just soldered one gaurd but looking good so far.

Thanks Mike and Steve

Take Care
Charles

cliff fendley
02-18-2007, 06:18 PM
I've still been meaning to try the fast orange, is everyone just wiping the parts off with it or cleaning with water and drying after using the fast orange?

Charles Vestal
02-19-2007, 06:32 AM
Hello Cliff

I don't know how Mike and Steve used it but I just wiped the tang and gaurd with the Fast Orange and a clean paper towel, then removed the residue with another paper towel.
Then fluxed the area and soldered the gaurd.

Take Care
Charles

Steve
02-19-2007, 04:16 PM
I've done it both ways, seems to work fine with either procedure, though I'm, at present, just wiping it with F.O. then wiping it off with a clean towel, or a clean part of the one I just used to apply it, and then soldering. It's easier to eliminate that "washing" step with water, I guess.

I'm glad that you're finding it useful. I like the affect that it has. Thanks, Mike, from me, too!

cliff fendley
02-23-2007, 08:02 PM
Thanks for the info, I havent tried it yet, Napa has some stuff that looks like the exact same bottle and they call it citrus orange. I asked the guys at Napa if they knew if it was the same stuff as fast orange and bottled for Napa and told them why I'd been meaning to pick some up. One of them wasnt supprised and told me an old trick to soldering certain materials is to use lemon juice. I've been around mechanics, plumbing and such my whole life and hadnt heard of this. It must be the citrus juice in it.
Thanks agian for sharing

Charles Vestal
02-24-2007, 10:51 AM
Hello Cliff

It sounds like it might be time to experiment with some lemon juice.
If it dosen't work you can always use it in your tea.
Thanks for the tip.

Charles

cliff fendley
02-24-2007, 11:59 AM
I was kinda thinking the same thing Charles, hope it works because I normally dont have lemon with tea.

Steve
02-24-2007, 11:03 PM
I'll bet that NAPA stuff will work. Let us know, will you? If it doesn't, send it to me and I'll buy it from you and use it for washing my hands. What a deal!

cliff fendley
04-27-2007, 03:43 PM
Hey everyone,
I finally tried the NAPA orange stuff yesterday and everything went fine, it was only one small blade so I need to experiment more with it to see if it really works, sometimes I just get lucky anyways:D

I've got a question here about heat guns, I'm still old school and using a torch and was reading some old threads on using heat guns. I never tryed one because I had tryed small butane torches like I solder wire with and it didnt work fast enough for me. I'd always tryed to get the joint hot fast and done before the rest of the blade and all got heat soaked and then cleaned up fast to prevent flux etch on the blade.

After reading the old threads and doing some thinking I'm going to buy a heat gun and want to know which one to buy, Milwaukee still has a model 8975 like was mentioned. I think thats the one Steve first tryed but heck I've read so much I cant remember. I guess my big question is which heat gun is best if there is a best one. Also the Milwaukee has two heat settings if I read it right, which heat setting do you use on these?

My biggest concern has been acid etch on the blade and exposing the blade to heat for very long and changing its temper. Any additional thoughts on this? thanks

Charles Vestal
04-28-2007, 12:13 PM
Hello Cliff
Glad to hear that the NAPA stuff worked for you, gives us another choice if we can't find the Fast Orange.
I am using a Milwaukee (made by Wagner) Mod.# 1220 heatgun, I always use the high setting and it does take awhile to get up to temp. On larger guards I have been using a small butane torch that seems to work pretty well.

Take Care
Charles

Steve
04-30-2007, 10:51 AM
Any heat gun that goes up to 1000F will do. I got mine from Wal-Mart for about $20 and it has two settings. I used a Milwaukee that Jim Poplin loaned to me for experimenting. You only heat it up to about 430F, so it won't hurt the temper. It is slower than a torch, that is true, but much more controllable and you don't get the blade so hot, so fast. Guess you have to decide which you like best. I haven't lit my torch for soldering since I started using the gun.
I'm glad that the NAPA cleaner is working well, also.

cliff fendley
04-30-2007, 09:26 PM
Thanks guys, Steve I read where you had borrowed the Milwaukee and bought the other one but just wondered how things have worked out since. I'm going to get one and try it.

Oh yeh, I almost forgot, are you guys still cleaning with acetone or something prior to wiping with fast orange?
I still cleaned with lighter fluid and lit it, old indian trick I learned from Gil Hibben. I told Gil about the fast orange or lemon juice but been so busy the last couple weeks I havent seen him to see if he tryed it.

Thanks agian,

Steve
05-01-2007, 03:19 AM
Thank you! Yes, still clean with acetone first. Can't hurt to try, hope it works for you. Like I mentioned, it isn't a drastic improvement, but it helps a little, makes things just a little easier, and with soldering anything that makes it easier is worth it! IMO

cliff fendley
10-28-2007, 10:58 PM
Steve and gang,
I have a soldering update and a few questions if you dont mind. I've tried the fast orange and I believe it does help but the last time I posted I think I just got real lucky. The problem I'm still having is with stainless guards. Today I was making a couple knives for a hunting buddy and me to field test a new design and the CPM154 steel this year during deer season and these two tried my patients.
I think a combo of the fast orange and the heat gun is the ticket because its the best success I've had with the stainless but I'm still not satisfied.
I am convinced I need to try a different solder and flux. I've been using Brownells force44 low temp and comet flux and its great on brass and nickel silver guards but stainless is a nightmare.
The question I have is the 682 flux a paste or liquid and is that the flux your still using?
Also which solder are you using? The force 44 I'm using is a 475 melting point and I think is could stand to use a solder that melts a few degrees cooler because I have a heck of a time keeping things at the temp to get the joint to all flow together. According to what I've read the 157 is at melts around 430.
Eutectic info also says the 157 and the 682 flux is liquid form and I thought I read somewhere about you using a paste.
Thanks agian for the help,
Cliff

Steve
10-31-2007, 10:03 AM
Cliff;

If you use Eutecitic 157 solder and Eutecsol 682 flux it will work, I'm sure. I'm currently using Jim Poplin's solder, I think it flows just a tiny bit better than the 157. It melts at 430F. They say that Stay Brite works well, also. I've used a paste 157, but like the wire much better.

michaellovett
11-01-2007, 04:39 PM
Well I'm still playing around with different tricks. Cliff, don't forget to wash off the fast orange. It has lanolin in it, and can't be good for the joint.

The next thing I want to try is silicon diver's grease. I am going to coat the blade next to the joint to see if we can kill the old etching problem. I will let every one know how it does or does'nt work as soon as I can get some results. Mike

cliff fendley
11-01-2007, 07:19 PM
Thanks Steve,
Do you still use the 682 flux with the Jim Poplin solder? Can you or anyone tell me the best place to buy it? I haven't seen the Eutectic products locally so I guess I'll call and see if there is a local supplier or try to buy it direct from them. Does anyone know of an online supplier of any of these products?

Mike,
I wiped the fast orange off with a clean paper towel, let us know about the grease, I hope it works. I was afraid anything like that would melt and get into the joint.

Thanks everyone, Cliff

michaellovett
11-16-2007, 04:59 AM
Well I've been down with a cold for the past couple of weeks. Just as soon as I get the results with the Divers greas, I'll post the results. Mike

Steve
11-16-2007, 11:34 AM
Yes, I use the 682 flux with Poplin's solder and it works fine.

Finding Eutectic products is kind of like an Easter egg hunt. You might Google Eutectic, or Castolin Eutectic, and call the home office or any dealer that you find, and see where you can get it. I got my last one from a rep. who moved into a town nearby, but he's since moved on & I don't know where. Also, a plumber supply had some one time, but that was long ago and I can't remember where, or who, it was. Sorry!
This is what I could find:

Eutectic Corp.
Headquarters Location
Flushing, NY 11358-2799 United States
(718) 358-4000 , (718)445-1242 fax

And:

EUTECTIC CORP
9625-J SOUTHERN PINE BLVD
CHARLOTTE
NC 28273
Phone:704-527-9800/ 800-221-1433
(This address matches the one on my bottle of EutecSol 682 Flux)

Thad Buchanan
11-17-2007, 07:41 PM
I couldn't find anyone locally that carried the 157 so I tracked the down the area rep. He gave me the name of someone at Eutectic that allowed me to buy direct. I had to buy a 2lb spool. Unfortunately I didn't keep the contact info since that amounts to a life time supply of solder for me. But I think if a guy worked through their area rep you could make it happen.

As far as the etching goes, Ron Lake gave me a tip that has been working well so far. I've been coating the blade with silicone mold release. It comes in an areosol can, but I spray it into a margarine container and then paint it on with a Q-tip while holding the blade with the tip down. It only takes a few minutes to dry and it's stable up to 550 degrees. It's available through MSC for about 9 bucks a can.

cliff fendley
11-17-2007, 08:59 PM
Hey everyone, I called Eutectic and talked to a tech guy that sounded like he knew his stuff. He said exactly what I expected to here after reading Steve's posts. He said that 682 flux was designed specifically for applications like ours and recommended it and the 157 solder. I didn't really want to buy 2# of the solder without trying it because its quite expensive. They gave me the name of an area rep and what do you know he is right here in the Louisville area, Clarksville, IN. actually. He said he would send me some for Gil and I to try and I just got it today and just opened it. Only problem he sent 1/8 inch solder which I'm afraid is too big. I dont know if I can mash it into a ribbon and apply it that way or not.

Anyway he sent me a sample and his card and said to try it and if we wanted any he could sell to me direct so let me know if anybody needs anything and I'll see what I can get it for. He may even be able to sell to anyone and ship it. I do know the only way to buy it according to Eutectic is 2# for the solder and three bottles of the 682 flux. I dont know if the rep can break it down smaller for us or not. Either way if anyone else is needing any maybe we can split up the order.

I'll post back after I try it. It may be a couple weeks before I get any blades done because its deer season here and were busy field testing knives not making them:)
One more thing, this 682 flux is a liquid not a paste. Steve, is yours a paste? I thought I read that somewhere but Eutectic says its only available in liquid form.
Thad, what size solder are you using?
Cliff,

Steve
11-17-2007, 09:33 PM
Great reports, Thad and Cliff. Thank you. I'm very happy to learn that you one actually contact Eutectic and actually find a rep. and actually get solder and flux. Thanks!!!! :101
Sure, you can mash out the 1/8" and at least test it, I'm sure. I get 3/64". Poplin's is 1/16", and works, but I like thinner, if I can get it. The solder is waaaaayyyyyy expensive, thus, I'm using POP's more and more. Both work very well. About as well as you can get for SS applications, as far as I know..........

I'd be glad to buy a bottle of 682 Flux, if you can pick some up. And, yes, it is a liquid, not a paste.

There is a paste 157 "solder" that has the flux in it, I have a bit of a struggle with it every time I use it, but I do use it for one application.

Charles Vestal
11-18-2007, 07:35 AM
Hello Cliff, I'm glad you found a rep. that will sell you the flux and solder. If you need some one to buy another bottle of 682 flux I would like to try it.

I have been using the 157 flux and Pops solder with good results but if the 682 works better that would be great.

Thanks everyone for sharing your soldering techniques

Take Care
Charles

cliff fendley
11-18-2007, 08:55 AM
Sounds great, I'll call him and find out what he'll sell us the 682 flux for. I think Eutectic told me it was around 80 or 90 bucks for three bottles. I'll see what the rep sells it for and let you guys know.
Eutectic told me the solder was 294 dollars for a two pound roll, which is why I contacted the rep to try a little. I cant believe he sent me this much of the 157 solder to try. Its at least half a roll of the 157. Only problem its 1/8 inch. He was so generous I feel obligated to buy some from him.
Steve, Gil Hibben said to say hey from him.
Thanks for sharing everyone:101
Cliff,

TJ Smith
11-18-2007, 10:32 AM
Well Shoot
Where do you get the turtles?
TJ

cliff fendley
11-18-2007, 08:56 PM
Well Shoot
Where do you get the turtles?
TJ
Usually in ponds around here.

Steve
11-19-2007, 09:28 AM
My very best goes back to Gil - who, by the way, is responsible for starting my knifemaking career - and for which I'm forever thankful.

If you use a heat gun and don't get things too hot, the etching is minimized.

Get the thin wire, if possible. Though you could try Pop's for a few dollars first and save a few hundred, perhaps, if you like it as well as I do.
Please just let me know on the flux, if you need another buyer. Thanks for al your efforts!

cliff fendley
11-19-2007, 01:53 PM
Gil is responsible for getting me hooked on this too. He's a great friend, lives about 4 miles from me. Gil hs great success with the brownells force 44 and comet flux but he's alot better than me. I've had alot of experience welding and soldering over the years and thought I was pretty good until I tryed soldering stainless to stainless.

I'll try the other solder. I'd say the flux is the key ingredient and at least its affordable.

Cliff,

Steve
10-27-2008, 09:23 AM
Perhaps, if you are looking for Eutecsol 682 flux, this will be a good source, or you can contact Ms. Hasseldeck for sources in your area:

Good Morning Mr. Johnson,
There is a distributor near your area in Provo as well as two well known distributors in Salt Lake City. I have included their addresses and phone numbers. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Praxair
1211 S Industrial Parkway
Provo, UT 84606
801-374-2556

Airgas Intermountain
3415 South 700 West
Salt Lake City, UT 84119
801-288-5000

Norco
2006 West 1500 South
Salt Lake City, UT 84104
801-467-7378

Best regards,

Carrie Hasseldeck
Sales Coordinator
Eutectic Corporation
262-532-4673
chasseld@messer-mg.com

-----Original Message-----
To: marketing@messer-mg.com
Subject: Eutecsol 682 Flux?

Dear Sirs;

I use l Eutectic 157 low temp solder for my custom knives and also
use Eutecsol 682 flux for difficult to wet alloys, as I solder stainless steel guards
onto my high chrome SS blades made of Crucible 154-cm steel.

I have a hard time finding a supplier for the flux and wonder if you'd be so kind as to
tell me where I can purchase this flux, locally, if possible. I am 120 miles south of Salt Lake City, Utah. I realize that it comes in 8 oz. bottles in a set of three.

Thank you very much,

Steve Johnson

S. R. Johnson, Knifemaker
435-835-7941
http://www.srjknives.com

Charles Vestal
10-28-2008, 01:58 PM
Thanks for the contact info Steve.

I Emailed Carrie Hasseldeck and she give me a list of sources close by.

The closest one to me said I would have to purchase three 24oz bottles.

If you have ordered any of the flux recently was this the minimum you had to purchase?

Thanks again
Charles

Steve
10-28-2008, 03:41 PM
Yes, I mentioned that at the end of my last post, you need to buy three. I'll be glad to take one, if that would help you.
Steve

[QUOT] "I am 120 miles south of Salt Lake City, Utah. I realize that it comes in 8 oz. bottles in a set of three."

Charles Vestal
10-28-2008, 06:06 PM
I noticed the 8oz bottles in a set of three, but my local supplier said the minimum is three 24 oz bottles.
The price of each 24 oz bottle is $59.04

Charles

Steve
10-28-2008, 06:54 PM
Sorry, Charles, I did not notice that. That seems like too much flux and too much money to make sense for a knifemaker. I would call Carrie and see if she knows anything about that.

My flux is in an 8 0z. bottle.

cliff fendley
10-28-2008, 10:02 PM
I've got a local guy here. I got three bottles last year and I think they are 8 oz. Gil has one of them and I've still got one I'm using and one not opened yet.

I've still got his number and can try to contact him if you guys need some.

I think they told you wrong Charles, that price sounds about right for the three 8 oz bottles which was the minimum.

Charles Vestal
10-29-2008, 07:11 PM
I talked to Carrie today, she said the flux comes in 8oz bottles and as you said you have to buy three.

I tried to order the flux from Carrie but it has to be shipped FedEx Priority One, so the flux cost $88 and the shipping estimate was $80-95.

Cliff if you don't mind could you please call your area Rep. and see if he could sell me a set of three bottles of the flux. Also ask if he will have to charge the extra high shipping for this order.

Thanks
Charles

cliff fendley
10-29-2008, 08:15 PM
I'll check, I dont remember being a big deal when I got it.

Charles Vestal
10-29-2008, 09:08 PM
Thanks Cliff,

If he needs a zip code to calculate shipping it's 24210.

Charles

cliff fendley
10-31-2008, 05:11 PM
Charles,

My guy isn't with them anymore. He gave me this number to see if someone else is in my area. 1-800-558-8524.

Its a shame because he lives, or at least he did live less than 10 miles from my house. At least he was still nice enough to return my call, nice guy.

I told him about the shipping and he said to call the 1-800 # and see if the new rep is close to me. I wonder if there is a problem shipping it UPS or something if one of us is real close to a distributor and can get it. I've ordered flux and things from Brownell's before and there was no extra shipping that I can remember.

Cliff

Charles Vestal
10-31-2008, 10:11 PM
Thank you for trying Cliff.

I'll call the supplier that I talked to earlier and see if he can check the pricing and bottle size again.

Again thank you for taking the time and trouble.


Charles

cliff fendley
10-31-2008, 10:20 PM
I'll try the 1-800#on Monday and see if there is a rep close to me.

michaellovett
11-21-2008, 02:31 PM
Any luck on that Flux order?

I've been using Stay bright in very thin roll that I hve been getting from AirGas.

That and Tix jewlers solder and flux. It flows at 275.

Mike

Charles Vestal
11-21-2008, 08:44 PM
Hello Mike,

No luck on my end. I guess I'll keep using the 157 flux


Take Care
Charles

michaellovett
11-22-2008, 10:30 AM
Hey Charles! How is it going buddy?

I guess I keep using the Stay
bright Flux that comes with the solder. :banghead

Mike

Steve
11-22-2008, 02:47 PM
I'll try and round up one of those three bottle, 8 oz. sets. I think STay-Bright is great, though, so don't sweat it if Eutectic won't work with us.

Steve
11-25-2008, 01:34 PM
I ordered the "Tri-Pack" of Eutecsol 682 flux this afternoon from Praxair.
Praxair
1211 S Industrial Parkway
Provo, UT 84606
801-374-2556

Talk to Grant and he'll help you. He had no problem locating it and will ship it to me via UPS. It costs $68.88, for three 8 oz. bottles, plus shiping to you from him. He told me it'd be about $7.00 for shipping. If you want a bottle you can have one of mine.

Charles Vestal
11-25-2008, 06:49 PM
Thanks for the contact info Steve.

I can't seem to find anyone local that wants to work with me on the flux.

If you don't mind I'll buy one of your bottles.

Thanks
Charles

michaellovett
11-25-2008, 06:54 PM
I'll Sure take the other spare! Hee! Yeah right. SPARE!!!

You probably want to keep the second one.
Don't blame you one bit!

Mike and Manuela

Steve
11-25-2008, 11:24 PM
You two can have them, I have a 3/4 full bottle that I'm using now, so I'm in good shape. It lasts a long time.

I'll let you know when the shipment arrives, could be 2 week's, what with the holidays happening and all. OK to ship this stuff?

Charles Vestal
11-28-2008, 06:32 PM
Thank you Steve.

I'll have to make one of your flux bottle holders now.

As for shipping, you might want to pack it real well. I'm not sure if the Postal Service considers it hazardous or not. I would see how the company sends it to you and ship it the same way.

Thanks again
Charles

michaellovett
11-28-2008, 07:41 PM
WooHoo. I've been wanting to try this stuff for years!

Man, I ate way too much for turkey day! It was SO good!!



Mike

cliff fendley
11-28-2008, 08:20 PM
Glad were still able to get some somewhere. I'm in good shape right now though.

I'd like to try their 157 solder, I got a sample from the rep I'd been dealing with but it is very large diameter and even by flattening it doesn't work so well. The stuff is terrible expensive or I'd buy some.

Steve
11-29-2008, 12:41 AM
I'll make sure it's safe and legal to ship, Charles.

Hope you like it, Mike.

Glad were still able to get some somewhere. I'm in good shape right now though.

I'd like to try their 157 solder, I got a sample from the rep I'd been dealing with but it is very large diameter and even by flattening it doesn't work so well. The stuff is terrible expensive or I'd buy some.

Try POP's Knife Supply solder. I like it a little better than Eutectic 157 and it's much, much more affordable.

cliff fendley
11-30-2008, 10:24 PM
Thanks Steve, I'll try that next.

michaellovett
01-31-2009, 06:46 PM
I'll make sure it's safe and legal to ship, Charles.

Hope you like it, Mike.



Try POP's Knife Supply solder. I like it a little better than Eutectic 157 and it's much, much more affordable.

Well I finally got the chance to try the flux you sent Steve. Very Nice! Love the way it makes the solder flow! and it seems to etch the blade much less than the stay bright. :rockon:

Thanks a Million!

Mike

Steve
02-02-2009, 10:51 AM
Don't you love it when a plan comes together? I'm glad that you like it, Mike. Anything that makes soldering go better is good, IMO.
Thanks for the report,
Steve

cliff fendley
02-02-2009, 07:36 PM
I got some Pops solder but haven't used it yet. I know the 682 flux is the real deal. Gil never had used any of the 682 I gave him until recently and was telling me how great it worked after he finally tried it.

Thanks for turning us onto it Steve.

michaellovett
02-03-2009, 03:31 AM
The report came from me. I'm still waiting to see how it worked out for Charles. Thanks you again Steve. It's working much better than I expected. The solder seems to flow just that much better, with much easier clean up after soldering.

While I'm at it. The Sonic Cleaning machine is working VERY WELL!!!

Mike and Manuela

Charles Vestal
02-03-2009, 07:21 PM
I tried the flux on three knives and it worked very well. The first knife I tried it on was a 7" fighter and I had a little trouble getting the solder to flow, but the next two went a lot better.

I think you may be on to something Steve.

Thanks for going through all the trouble to send the flux Steve.

Hey Mike, you mentioned that you were going to try some ethcer neutralizer in the ultrasonic cleaner, is this what you are using.

Take care
Charles

Steve
02-04-2009, 10:23 PM
Sorry, Mike, I knew that report was from you, I'd just seen Charles' last post and didn't think. Thanks! My brain freezes even when I am not eating ice cream!

I've used my ultrasonic cleaner on two knives and it looks like it will do the job. I even tore one guard off, since I messed it up and it appeared that the penetration of the soapy, baking soda water was complete. I wonder how long we really need to leave the knives in the solution/cleaner? I went like 20-30 min. for these two.
Thanks for this great idea Michael!

michaellovett
02-09-2009, 10:47 PM
Thanks Steve. Yep, I'm leaving them in there for about 45 minutes. But that is probably more than needed. I'm using the soapy soda boil for about 5 minutes before using the sonic cleaning machine.

Hi Charles. Yep, the etching neutralizer from Lectroetch. # LIC.

It seems to be working fine.

Mike

Charles Vestal
02-10-2009, 08:18 PM
Thanks Mike,

If you don't mind could you tell me what type of ulrta sonic cleaner are you using. The ones I've found that are big enough for a knife are very costly.

Thanks
Charles

michaellovett
02-15-2009, 11:58 PM
Thanks Mike,

If you don't mind could you tell me what type of ulrta sonic cleaner are you using. The ones I've found that are big enough for a knife are very costly.

Thanks
Charles Hey Charles!

I found it on ebay. The tub is apx. 10"x4 1/2" by 6" deep. Seem like it was just under 300. from a medical supply company.

Mike

Steve
02-16-2009, 11:22 AM
Here is the one that I purchased. Seems to work fine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-PRO-5-95L-DIGITAL-HEATED-ULTRASONIC-CLEANER-DENTAL_W0QQitemZ140300449291QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item140300449291&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318

Charles Vestal
02-16-2009, 08:39 PM
Thanks Mike and Steve,

That is alot cheaper than the ones I have been looking at.

Do you use the heat option on yours Steve?

Take care
Charles

Steve
02-17-2009, 12:28 AM
Charles;
I just put the "Boiling Mix" (Soapy water with a little baking soda mixed in) in the ultrasonic cleaner and turn up the temp to about 60C, which is about the maximum for the unit, then, after perhaps 10-15 min., I take it out, blow compressed air under the guard and then soak it in clean water. Then blow that water out again and heat it up with the heat gun, just enough to eliminate any water that is under there, but not hot enough to melt the solder!.

Charles Vestal
02-19-2009, 09:12 PM
Thanks Steve, I will be trying this procedure out soon.

Take care
Charles

michaellovett
02-21-2009, 06:44 PM
lastly, after what Steve has just described doing, I like to put a drop or two of FP-10 in the joint and let it hang on the shop wall over night. This seems so far to sound the final death Nell on the flux out gassing.

Before putting on the scales, brush in a bit of fast orange to kill the oil. I then rub it down with a little alcohol. , and soak the back of the joint with the alcohol for a few minutes, then blow out the joint with air.
So far, by doing this I haven't had any problems with the oil leaching out of the joint into the handle materials.

Mike

Steve
02-21-2009, 07:45 PM
Right, Mike. I forgot to mention the FP-10. I'm trying just washing the blade/guard in the ultrasonic cleaner before soldering, bypassing the washing with acetone and Fast Orange. It seems to work very well, really gets things clean. Wash in ultrasonic cleaner and then place in distilled water for a few min and then blow it dry inside and outside the guard with compressed air. The solder seems to flow quite nicely. At least it's working so far, on ECCKS knives, of which I've done 4-5.

michaellovett
02-22-2009, 11:39 AM
Sounds good! I may have to get a second machine and try that out!

Mike

Bill Vining
05-14-2009, 07:03 PM
Hi Folks-
Steve pointed me to this thread and I have to say there is quite a bit of information here. Thanks to all the contributors.

I would love to get a hold of a bottle of the Eutectic #682 Flux. Would anyone happen to have a spare bottle they would like to sell?

Thanks.....
Bill

CWKnifeman
05-18-2009, 03:09 AM
One other thing that I mightadd because I have been doing it this way for years and that is this. I make quite a few bird N trout with damascus bolsters on them and I dont want to have pin showing so I use hidden souldered pins. I do this as I have for years by souldering the bolsters/guards prior to actually placing them onto the blade. One you use less soulder, second you don't have as much of a problem with overflow of excess soulder, and three clean up isreally simple with a brass rod gut for a graver. I will probably try the FP-10, and the Fast Orange. But If you soulder the bolsters first then redrill the holes to clear out any excess, place the pins into the pre drilled holes and putting the bolsters on the pins yousimply heat up to tempature and clamp with heavy pliers until cured. Smooth tiped vice grips will work as well and while it is curring you have time to do your cleanup. This is just the way that I have Fould that works for me.
Curtis Wilson

cliff fendley
05-19-2009, 07:34 AM
Steve, Do you think the Pop's solder has a higher melting point than the 157? I got some from Pop's and it seems like before I can get the solder to flow the flux is trying to burn. Then it doesnt go into the joint unless I add a few drops of new flux and get things bubbling.

The 157 just will just melt and suck in the joint about the time the flux turns back to liquid. Thanks for the pointer on that because thats what I look for now.

The Pop's solder does seem like its a little easier to clean up.

I'm still using the large diameter 157 sample I got and flattening the big wire with a brass hammer so that I can apply it down in the joint. That stuff is amazing.

Gil loves this stuff too, I think he and I are just going to buy a roll of 157 and divide it up.

Steve
05-19-2009, 08:44 AM
They both seem the same to me, but we might be handling them differently, in some way. Go with what works for you. A roll of 157 will last you many years. If you do buy a roll, maybe you can report on obtaining it and the cost?

cliff fendley
05-19-2009, 07:58 PM
Do you have any idea where to get it Steve? I thought about calling the fellow you got the flux from to see.

The salesman that I had here locally is no longer with Eutectic.

Steve
05-20-2009, 12:27 AM
Sure, call him. I'll bet he can help you. Let me know, if you don't mind.