Frank Niro made me do it.

Who'll share a mistake or two that might help others avoid going down that same path and regretting it? Maybe we ouight to keep this to the subject of knives, Better go to your Bishop or Pastor, etc. for the other stuff.

My first one is to not be so cheap that you insist on using an old belt to grind down that MOP, or mammoth, etc., only to have it get too hot and fracture on you (me). It's cheaper and makes life more enjoyable, to use a good belt and forgo the ruination of an expensive set of handle material. There, I did it......

Having never been fortunate enough to learn from another maker, I could probably write a book on mistakes.One of my most frustating and I have experience at this as I have done this more than once is hurrying.I have a knife almost done or a blade ready to handle and see a blemish or scratch and try to whip it out on the grinder only to make it worse.Sometimes you have to SLOW DOWN.And one from my early days,more epoxy will NOT make it hold any better,but does sure make a mess.Dave:)

Every knife I make is an excercise in mistake correction. Probably the one that bugs me the most is when I first started making folders and I didn't do the geometry right and the ball for the detent would roll off the blade then back on when you opened and closed it. I guess you could call it a speed bump.

Oh, and then there is my one and only flat ground fixed blade...ugh.

Planning can eliminate some of those, can't they, Bob? (Steve)

As I said, I have made some dandys! One day ,after sharpening a nice thin fillet knife I decided to clean it up on the buffing wheel. The wheel caught the blade and it was pulled into the wheel. Yes it destroyed the wheel but wasn't I pleased after I counted all my fingers and found they were still all there. Frank Niro

Now that's the kind of mistake that I like! One where important parts of the body are still there when the smoke clears. Let's keep being as safe as possible. Buffing takes one's undivided attention!

Well finishing a blade that hasn't been heat-treated. YOU know,handles epoxied on,guards soldered, ... It still stands in my work bench today.

Is there ANY task when starting out that isn't a bungle somehow?? ;) I have only done a few kits, but have got a BUNCH of mistakes to add into my portfolio...

I measured and cut my scale material for a handle, leaving just enough excess to be considered 'thrifty'... Then, I proceeded to dovetail both the bolster and the scale. I kept touching up the scale to make sure it ran true to the liner. Ahhhh.. just right. Only now with the loss from the dovetails and touch-ups the scale was 1/16" too short. No problem--just sand the end of the liner to match.... Ooooopps! NOW the blade is sticking out the end. You know the rest, he he!

" 'Experience' is how we label our mistakes... so the NEXT time we make them we can identify them that much quicker! " (Unknown quote)

Coop

Many more mistakes than successes, but, hopefully, not too many get repeated - like last month's liner lock which only my son and I could open (OK if it was supposed to be an Appleton IQ folder, but it wasn't)
Most memorable, however:
Don't use a 3450 rpm buffer on knives, and never, never try to catch a blade that is snatched away by the buffer and bounces off the walls and ceiling at high speed on its way to a cement floor - let it break.
Had these forums, and readily available advice, existed a few years ago, I may have avoided a split hand and many, many stitches.

Someone once said; "EXPERIENCE is what you get when you SCREW UP."

I consider myself EXPERIENCED, maybe even super experienced.

Well I tend to be a tight wad, I try to get as much mileage out of any peice of meterial that I can and then I cut it off and it is still to short Gib

Hear, Hear!

That's where miniatures come form!:rolleyes:

The test of being a real knifemaker is to work through your mistakes.
What to do now, maybe if I.......
Some of my best stuff came from fixing a mistake.
It is only a mistake if we don't learn from it.

Mistakes can be our biggest learning tool.

Learning from other's mistakes...
I can't.
Sorry to say that I have to make all my mistakes myself to learn them.
I would hope that someone could learn from my mistakes, but in reality, hearing about other's mistakes doesn't mean that you won't do them yourself.
my.02 cents.
I would like to hear how others OVERCOME the mistakes they made. I "CAN" learn from that.

Very good point.

Hey, the mistakes of others can at least make us proceed with caution....

Here are 2 that I made last night.

1) make sure you fingers are free from lube (WD40) before grinding a small items... don't need to trim those nails for awhile :eek:

2) make sure your handle material is locked well in the vise before reaming out a hole... didn't need that thumb for a couple of days anyway :rolleyes:

need to get some sleep.
Mike

How hot does that get, exactly??

Take it from me: Thumbs is better than stubs!

Luckily I was fast enough to pull away before any real damage--no loss of sensitivity or blood :D My hands were pretty wet so the heat didn't build up either.

I was lucky, this time.

Mike

Whew! Let's learn from that report, or at least consider it.

What do you do with your mistakes?
Steve, check out the FOSSIL knife in the display case.
This was a mistake from the forge on.
I knocked 1/2 of it off before I could get it welded, so I forged a straight blade out of it, left it in the etchant overnight, ect...

That is what I meant when I asked, What do you do with your mistakes. There is always something else you can do with it.

I use to throw them away, but now I try to make something else out of them. This is an example of persistance. :)

Turned out nicely, Gene. I must admit that I've ended up with smaller knives than what was originally planned!

Thanks for the tip and the photo.

LOL, Steve, that is one of my favorite questions to ask a young knifemaker that is showing off his latest masterpiece, "How big was it when you started grinding on it?" :confused:
We've all been there, like my fillet knife of a bowie design. :cool:

But that is exactly what I mean about, what do you do with your mistakes?
Don't you try to make it something else?
I hate to throw away anything, esspecially if I can rework it and still come up with a good knife.

Does everyone have a scrap drawer somewhere.
It is educational, and sometimes inspirational to go back through your mistakes.
While this may not be the original form of mistake that you meant in your question, we all have boo-boo's because of what we do.
Every accident could be prevented, but they still happen in real life.
I wish I could post Rule #1: DON'T BLEED.
then again we have all broken that rule, havn't we?

What I hate is when you have to regrind a knife after H/T, and the handle winds up being too big for the blade when you are finished. :eek:

Exactly.

I made the mistake of file-working a thin tip and it broke off, of course. Now the 4" blade is becoming a 3 incher.

It's good to be able to usually salvage them.

Stuck a Big Bear-type in the threads of a taper point on the buffer once and had saw teeth. The blade ended up with much more taper toward th oint. Looked OK, and sold, but it wasn't as planned.

Never never never heat up a brass rod with a propane torch with your right hand and then decide to pick it up with your left. I was making some mosaic pins and the inserts were not quite fitting so I applied the torch to the rod and then naturally just picked it up to insert the other rods. I now have a blister in a perfectly straight line across all my fingers and my thumb.
Not one of my brighter moves.
Steve
:eek: :eek: :eek:

I just got this quote from a cheasy 'feel good' email:

Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself.

Yup!

Coop

Dust collection bags for grinder dust need water traps. Boom!

Don't clean an etching blade by holding the blade in one hand edge out and rubbing it with steel wool in the other. Cut myself bad three times before I learned to turn it edge in ( that is, edge in on the holding hand . )

On large damascus blades you can save vast amounts of material by forging in the bevels; Thinking you will save time by simply forging it flat and grinding the bevels in is foolish.

Looks like you guys have been BUSY! Just got back from Colorado and it was a nice 4 day visit. Thanks for all the great tips.

A cabinet maker once told me the difference between a good cabinet maker and bad one is how well he covers up his mistakes. Makes me think.

Dan Graves
Theknifemaker.com

When you are TIRED SLEEP dont grind. Do not even think about buffing Grump

Whrn yoir tird dont posf eithr.............

Here's one...when dovetailing bolsters, always check BOTH top and bottom for fit BEFORE pinning them to your blade. Oh, and here's one more I just learned...remember which bit you have in the drill press. You can't tap a hole 2-56 that's drilled with a #44 bit:(

Thanks. It is rally a lot harder to do something twice. Is it ChrisReeves who puts "Measure twice. Cut once." on his T-shirts?

It is really hard to make a hole smaller once it's been drilled!

I once spent 2 weeks on an exotic Ivory folder , full fill work the

whole 9 yards ....but when came the moment of truth ,when all

clean up and polishing was done, that sucker wouldn't open..!

no matter what I tried that blade wouldn't budge,.!

in frustration I threw it at the wall of my shop , it bounced

off the wall hit the concrete floor and I swear to the all mighty

it openned with a smoothness I have yet to duplicate.

To this day I've never had the guts to do that again Lloyd

Not staying in touch with old knifemakers like Lloyd Hale.....Big mistake!......

Gentlemen.....Lloyd Hale can do it all! If we stick around long enough, no doubt, we'll see.

Welcome to the CKD................

Jim Small

Thanks, Lloyd for dropping by and sharing a great story. Making knives acn be very frustrating at time, of course, very enjoyable too.

Welcome to the forum, and best regards! I second Jim's remarks.

Thanks Guys...!
I'm really enjoying these forums and the chance to share what
I've learned these 30 + years.....it sure flys by when you're
having fun....Who ever thought this format up is an absolute
genius..! How is this funded ?? and how do you guys get those
large reply windows to type in.??

I'll get a digital camera soon and get some pictures up ...

Hey Lloyd,
We're proud to have you. The CKD Forums are funded by our illustrious leader, Alex Whetsell at Atlanta Virtual.

The reply window is the same size for everyone. You just type away and once you submit a post, it is formatted to fit forums.

I look forward to seeing some photos of your current work when you get that digital camera. If you need any help along the way, just yell.

Lloyd,

Don't use the return button, just let the box move your words to the next line, it will automaticly do it. If you use the return it will force your words into another line.

Welcome!

Thanks a million Jerry
as soon as i can I'll get some pictures up ...Mr. frazier had a professional photogragh his collection, for insurance reasons and to down load on the museums inventory computer. I just need to make friends with this photographer and buy some prints. also how do you put those wity quotes on the bottom of the window ? you guys are great !

I got to see some of your work in that issue of Knives Illustrated. Awesome stuff!.

As for the witty signature. After you are logged on at the top of the page there is a small button named "user cp" (user control panel) click it and go to "edit profile" part way down is a signature box. Put in there what ever you would like it to read. in my case it's

my name
then 2 returns (which I told you not to use before but here it helps)
and then my witty comment.

I forget where but there's also a spot where you click so that it uses the signature. You may never have to sign a forum again :lol

Lessons learned on my 2nd knife yesterday.

1. When heat treating long blades, heat both sides and don't lay them on their side in the oil unless you like horseshoe type blades.
2. Do a search on CKD to find out how to straighten bent blades.
3. Convex ground blades are sharp before you final sharpen them.:eek:
4. When counterboring handle slabs, bore the OUTSIDE.
5. When filling misbored holes in handle slabs with epoxy, fill the INSIDE.
6. Always have spare wood on hand for handle slabs.
7. Don't get in a hurry, and quit when you are tired.

I love this stuff!:D

Steve Ferguson

Counterbore the OUTSIDE! Now that's a great tip! We've all dne something like that....or will sometime.

Thanks everyone for keeping this going, great ideas, all.

When making metal throats for sheaths, Remember that there is a left and right side. I have 2 lefts. This goes for anything that has to sides.

Dan
www.theknifemaker.com

Thank goodness nickel silver anneals so we can say ooops ,look around the shop to see if anyone saw that boo-boo and start all over.

How about drilling bolsters for folders then countersinking the wrong side - not that I have ever done that before:)

I have laughed at this thread until there are tears in my eyes. You don't know how nice it is for a complete newbie to see that he really isn't dumb as a box of rocks.. or maybe he is, but he's in good company :D

Of course you guys have failed to mention reaching up to slow your grinder wheel down for a belt change and getting your glove caught between the belt and wheel. Or using too much epoxy then laying it down and permanently attaching it to your work bench. :lol

Oouuuucccchhh! That's smarts. I can testify!

At least the knife won't get lost that way, or at least mis-placed.

In 13 months of knifemaking I've racked up countless cuts, scrapes bruises, close calls, set my head, hands, apron, trousers, bench, workshop, grinder, dust collector on fire.

Lesson 1 - HOPEFULLY PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY LEARNING FROM THESE FORUMS, NOT JUST LAUGHING (OK, its actually hard not to laugh... a lot...) Study the craft as much as is possible.

Lesson 2 - Careful with ANY adhesives. I've superglued myself to the middle of my garage / workshop and sat there for 7hours till a neighbour came home. Wear those cheap surgical or food handling vinyl or latex gloves you can buy 50-100 at a time.

Lesson 3 - Learn safety before all else. You need plenty of time outside of hospital if you're going to make any decent knives. Most bodyparts are hard to replace. Some areas are also more painful than others.

Lesson 4 - What Gene Osborne said - make a mistake - CORRECT IT. Do something else with it. Local knifemaker, Bob Wilhelm told me, experience is when you can troubleshoot ... YOU WILL ALWAYS MAKE MISTAKES.

Lesson 5 - what other have said - don't Do NOTHIN' when you're tired.

Lesson 6 - Make each knife better than the last one you made. Or at least try.

Lesson 7 - As they say in Medical School (and many other schools) - LEARN ONE, DO ONE, TEACH ONE.

Cheers. Merry XMas.

One lesson I've finally learned is don't buy cheap tools. It'll end up costing you more in the long run and it's just not worth the frustration.
Don't take short cuts when you're putting a knife together. If you're tired of hand sanding a blade, set it aside and do something else till you're in the mood again.
When you're putting scales and bolsters on a knife with screws, remember to thread the holes BEFORE you heat treat the blade. Ugh does this one make you feel stupid!
Never wear sandals with socks and grind L6. The big blobs of red hot steel dust it puts out will inevitably set your big toe on fire!



Glad I finally clicked on the link to this forum, thanks guys!!

Well, as many have alluded to, and A. T. Barr used to tell me too oftenly appropriately, "Speed Kills"...knives, bolsters, liners, people, etc.

This one is shop related: got a new 3/4 hp baldor buffer a couple of years ago. Unpacked it, set it up on its stand, decided I wanted to try running it ...see how smooth it was, so clamped a pair of vise-grips on the shaft, put a 10" scotchbrite wheel on and tightened its nut down. And then turned on the motor.....with vise grips still on the shaft and not bolted to the stand. Started to bounce off the stand....I had a choice of catching it or letting a $500 - 60 pound piece of gear drop 3 ft to a concrete floor.
I caught it on the way down and quickly placed it on the floor, but not before the vice-grips did some very painful damage to my left arm...the muscle is still indented and tingles whe the weather changes.

When making a left handed folder, follow a very set procedure of steps or I'll guarantee you will cut the spring on the wrong side or countersink for the screws through the spacer on the wrong side of the liner.....one thing that has helped alot is to start by grinding the lock angle on the tang correctly early in the process and keep fitting the spring, liners and parts to the correctly ground angle...work from that point out th the other parts.

When drilling the holes from the liner through the handle material, be sure you pick the right hole to drill. or you will ruin whatever the material is....my case one time was 1 of the 2 piece $120 set of mammoth ivory slabs.

Hello. There is no end to the mistake as long as we keep making knives, but we can always keep learning.
One of my favorite quotes is by Mark Twain.
"The purpose of an education is to replace cock sure ignorance with healthy skepticism".
Ricardo Velarde
www.velardeknives.com

Keep it fun and try not to let yourself get discouraged.
It is hard to get back in the shop once you have pushed yourself to far.

Amen.

J. R.:

Next time, I hope you'll let it drop. you can make another $500, you can't make another arm or hand.

Oh....., hindsight is great, isn't it? almost as great as an armchair quarterback's wisdom.

Sorry...

Here are a couple of good ones that are hard to beat.
I was basically finished grinding a blade when I decieded to touch up this minute sratch, my left heel was on top of the wheel of the chair, and my lerf arm was resting on my leg. My heel sliped off and the knife ended on the edge of the wheel adding another 45 minutes to fix it up.
One time I was talking to Steve when he was grinding and he pulled the knife away from the grinding wheel.when he tryed to bring the knife back to start grinding again he put the tip of the knife into the side of the wheel and then cut his pants and almost his leg. Watch out for those, he got lucky on that one.
I do not what happened to my post from this morning, so I say this again, one of my favorite quotes by Mark Twain.
"The purpose of an education is to raplace cock sure ignorance with healthy skepticism".
Ricardo Velarde

www.velardeknives.com

srj+rv
as much as would dearly love to spend time in the shop with you two (in an effort to learn how you do such wonderful work), i'm not sure that my medical insurance coverage could handle it :rolleyes:
thanx for the :)

I have an agent friend that'll set you up with a very short-term, high-risk policy for not too much $, should you decide to reconsider, heh, heh, heh....

Ricardo, your earlier coments are there, back about 6 posts.

All right, here's a few from uhm.. a "friend" of mine ;-) I call it my, I mean HIS, Top 10:

1. When making a folder keep in mind that you can't epoxy the scales to the liner unless you've already screwed the thing together. Otherwise, you end up covering over the screw holes...

2. When grinding a blade on a belt sander remember to grind edge down. Grinding edge up will result in the blade cutting the belt once it gets sharp enough.

3. Eye protection, eye protection, eye protection. I was wearing eye protection when working on the belt grinder, moved to the Dremel and took the glasses off to get a better look at the lines on the bolster. Forgot to put the glasses back on and now I have a slight shadow in the upper right corner of my right eye. Everytime I catch it in my peripheral vision I remind myself that it could have beem MUCH worse.

4. Always mark your scales for side and direction. I spent several days working some very nice burl wood scales only to end up ruining them by glueing them to the wrong sides of the knife.

5. Remember - dimethyl ketone (acetone or nail polish remover) eats epoxy. Even the 2-ton stuff. Even the stuff you don't want eaten. Use it sparingly and with plenty of ventilation. And don't forget that it's flamable. Or is that inflamable? I can never remember.

6. Don't ask - just chant to yourself: "Yes, superglue CAN glue your fingers to themselves. And the knife scales. And your shirt. And anything else it contacts." See note #5 concerning nail polish remover.

7. If you're not going to use the support platform on your grinder remove it. And all the stuff that helps hold it up. I wanted to do some buffing, so I took off the platform, but left the support arm in place. Everything was going good until I turned the knife into the buffing wheel and it got slung around. Needless to say, the knife would have ended up resting safely on the back of the workbench, if I had removed the platform arm. Instead, the knife rebounded off the arm and shot straight down - right into my foot.

8. Never wear sandals in the workshop. Better still, get steel toe and steel shank safety shoes. See #7 above.

9. Leave nothing hanging. Take off your watch, jewelry, bracelets, necklaces, hanging shirt tails, loose sleeves. Check them at the door. Rotating machinery has no guilt and assumes no responsibility for being a knucklehead. Remember that old Timex commercial where they attach the watch to a propellar shaft? Think about attaching it to a grinder wheel instead.

10 Finally #10. The big One-Oh. You can always take more off, but (as a general rule) you can't put it back on. Some say to measure twice and cut once. I say, think twice, check twice, ask a second opinion, check the forum, and then grind once.

Thanks!

When grinding titanium don't wear ratty old blue jeans,you know the kind with holes in knees with all the little threads hanging out.
The threads are an easy taget for the flaming little balls of titanium to hit.Even though its been a bit chilly setting ones pants on fire is not a good way to warm up.

I've found I cause myself far less injury when I'm alert enough to do a quick mental review of the potential a tool or piece of equipment has to hurt me before I start using it. So when approaching a buffer, I imagine the fibers whipping around whatever I'm holding, yanking it out of my hands and flinging it at my head, etc. This reminds me very clearly of all the precautions I should be taking/considering at that moment. I don't mean one should get scared of one's equipment, but since we do work with tools designed to shape materials much tougher than our bodies, it helps to respect what they can do. It's so easy to relax when it's all so familiar--the belt and the buff look like they're not moving at all when they've been going fast a long time.

I have, one night, after a very long day at the bench, soldered something, let it air cool to black, and then picked it up with bare fingers. Brilliant. Literally thinking, "not red=not hot" because, of course, in terms of the metal itself it isn't that hot. In terms of me, um, yes.

Which is also how I noticed that deep burns take about a minute before real pain kicks in, so it's possible to think you haven't really hurt yourself too badly and keep working before the stick-your-hand-in-something-cold-NOW messages reach your stupid brain. Burning flesh smell is also a definite tip-off...

I also find it amazing how the split second after you see blood, you often remember that just a few seconds earlier you were vaguely thinking, "it could slip, and this isn't the safest way, but I've got it..." Know what I mean?

As a follow-up to what Stan Wilson says about worn thread bare jeans, Also, DO WEAR an apron of heavy denium or leather when grinding Titanium....If you only have on a knit polo style shirt or T-shirt, the sparks from Titanium WILL burn a hole in the shirt...it may not hurt you, but it is quite damaging to your shirt...in my case always on the the left center, about 2 inches above my belt-line. I must be a little slow to learn as I've got a dozen or so shirts like this with a hole in the same location on each of them.

Put them in the want/classified ads:

"Authentic knifemaker's shirts for sale, $20 each, included proof of use hole."

I have not spent the time reading some of the other pages and I hope I am not repeating someone else mistakes.
Here is one I remembered today.
If you are cutting with a BandSaw,and are using metal that will work-harden, make sure you keep it cool. If you notice the saw stoped cutting and you start pushing harder to get through that tough spot, STOP!!. If the metal piece got too hot it probably worked-harden. The blade will go dull in two seconds. If you need to finish a cut, come back from the opposite side and stay short about .015" from meeting the other cut.
There are two things you might run into if you go all the way with the cut. One, you might run into some teeth from the blade stuck in the metal and those will ruin your saw. Two, you might dull your blade if the piece of metal had worked harden.
My advice is to take a few more minutes, go slow, and avoid those frustrating situations and extra saws.

Ricardo Velarde

www.velardeknives.com

This is one that took a great amount of inattention to accomplish. I was putting a pair of ivory micarta slabs on a knife that I had spent days on. I drilled and counterbored my screw holes, rough shaped the handles so that I would know in a hurry which side went where when I put the epoxy on, then proceded to put everything together. I let it sit a few minutes when I realized that I had not profiled the front edge.

It took some vicegrips, prybar, and a rawhide hammer, but I was able to get the scales off and reuse them. Obviously this was not something that I did early in the day. I don't wait for everyone to go to bed before I head out to the shop anymore.

Oh yeah, you should make sure that your mig bottle is not sitting behind your buffer. They sure do ring and you will do all kinds of cool moves until you are sure that you have not moved from knife making into the making of a compressed air rocket.

Mike

Thanks for the idea of putting the shirts up for sale as "Authentic Knikemakers shirts" for sale with "proof of use hole".

I know other folks like Steve....you know ....if you give him lemons, he'll make lemonade.....if you give him sour grapes, he'll turn them into grape marmalade......

One mistake I've made several times (believe it or not) that I've just now made is proceeding to make a sheath out of leather and discovering when its finished that it turned out to be a left handed sheath. It is from tracing the pattern onto the wrong side of the leather. Its a waste of expensive leather (for me anyway) but I suppose I can save them until a left handed person orders the same make of knife. i have 2 or 3 of these useless things sitting in my shop right now...

I was doing some glueing and was wearing Nitrate gloves. Went to "flip" the belt off one of my Bader's and got my hand caught in the moving belt. It ran my hand trough the contact wheel and out the back side. That was interesting. And scarry. Also stamped a hard blade with a brand new stamp. Won't do that again (I hope!). Mark

As to the left handed sheath post,the very first knife I sold I made a right handed sheath.Turns out the buyer was left handed.
Now I always ask.