I just got some 1084 and 4600 powered steel and itching to get started. A few questions. I want to start with the cookie cutter method where I will fill the cookie cutter with powder. I know the powder will reduce so do I make the container 2 times larger than the cookie cutter so as not to distort the cookie cutter pattern (fill container with powder). The cookie cutter is nickel. Also, I hafe some u channel that is galvinized that looks like the right size for the can. Will the galvinize mess up the welding? Also any tips would be great. Thanks.

don't know if the galvinizing will mess up the weld (uneducated guess-yes), but it might do a number on you. you could run it thru a sand blaster to remove the coating. mike

Dan,
First off, do yourself a favor and forget about the galvanized steel. I don't use it for anything that requires welding of any sort. Your health is worth more than any savings you might see from using it. It's just not worth it.

Use the thinnest walled tubing you can find. Under an eight inch is preferable. You have to gring the can off after welding/reducing the billet. My first powder billet was some scrap tubing that was over 1/4"wall thickness, lots of work and grinder disks to remove the shell.

I like to have at least a 1/2" of powder around the perimeter of my object, 3/4-1" is preferable. When you start welding it up (I'm assuming your using a press for this) take small bites on one side, turn it and take the same sized bits on the other side. If you take too large of bites the sides of the can will pucker and be forced into the interior of the can, creating lots of work when cleaning it up and distorting your pattern. The pattern will also show less distortion when working it evenly with small bites.

I usually do my initial welding on my press. Small bites on each side and then back into the forge when it starts cooling. As soon as it starts feeling solid I know its welded, I then go to my power hammer and start working it.
Good luck!!!!
Hope this helps,
Jon

Jon, thanks for the advice. All I have is a power hammer but I am good enough to tap it and not just beat heack out of it. Any tips on knowing when it is all welded? Also, any good advice on some simple patterns to start with?

Zinc fumes are toxic ,don't use galvanized. Zinc will mess up the weld, don't use galvanized.

Dan,
Your power hammer should do the trick, just work it slow and back into the forge when it starts to cool. You should feel it firm up and get solid when it is welded. It will be soft and mushy when you first start to hammer on it so start out slow.

After you have welded up the can and attached the handle place the handle on your anvil and see where it want to come to a rest, then drill a small hole in the top of your can to let out the trapped gas as the billet is heating up, this way your can won't bulge. You find where it wants to rest so that when it is in your forge the powders won't be falling out of the can (in case the hole is pointed downward). If you are sure that you have some incomplete welds on your can with holes/voids you may not have to do this step. Some sparks may come out of your forge regardless, this is powder coming out and I always have a little of this happening.

Tom Ferry gave me some great advice a few years back on patterning. He told me to stick with one pattern I like and do something different to it each time. This way you can see how each step affects the pattern. You'll be amazed at how many different thing you can achieve doing this with one simple pattern. I like to make my cans as large as possible so I have lots of material to do different manipulations to. After you decide what initial pattern you want to work with try resquaring, radialing, twisting, recombing in a loaf, or any combination of these, etc.

Good luck,
Jon

Well, I got the can welded and am ready to add powder. Just cant decide what to try. This stuff is expensive so I want to be successful the first time. I am wondering if on the scraps if they have to have scale removed? I am assuming they do. The can is 3" square. Will post when I figure it out and weld. Thanks guys for all your advice.

Dan welding on a power hammer is tricky to say the least the can will try to rip apart due to the internal heat created in side the can from the outsides moving .the best way to get it done is like jon mentioned do -not try moving a lot at anytime and i say alow the heat inside to catch up to the outsides this can make it slow to begine with but it will begine to thighen up some .
as you know a press moves things inside first the hammer moves the outsides first the skin will streach or dent easy its tap tap tap all the way till you get it solid the press moves things in a squaring die so its much faster . i have found that the thicker the end caps are the less distotion inside the can , just be sure that you tap tap the ends first then move into the fild --- you can take the ends smaller then move the fild to the same size it should hold its pattern but if you alow the center to get smaller then the ends the pattern will distort also remberthat when finished the thick caps will be a larg part from the ends it will move to the size of the bar lets say you start with thin wall tubing and 1/2 caps when the billit gets to 3/4 x 3/4 the caps will take up to 3 to five inches of the bar at both ends good luck it can be done with a hammer .
but like you said its exspencive -- if it were my first time i would use shaving to learn on then powder when i perfected the hammering process

Thanks guys! A lot of good information here. I will use shavings on the first try. The are from a brake shop and are coated with, I guess cutting fluid. Will that hurt? Can I just put small pcs of nickel and maybe get something for fittings on a knife? Again, thanks for the input as I would like to get something the first time as propane is soooo expensive now.

Would muffler tubbing make a good can? It's very thin, cheap and easy to find.

Can you forge weld high carbon steel powder and stainless steel powder? I know that nickel powder can be forge welded with HC steel and stainless has alot of nickel in it. I am guessing that the pattern would be interesting after etching since the nickel would resist it more then the HC steel.

I am doing my first can weld tomarrow but before I spend alot of time cutting/collecting stainless steel powder I thought I would check. Time is valuable and I hate wasting it.

Yeh, I,ve used muffler tubing in the past. It was large, probably 4-1/2"-5" dia. By the time you get it square it should be firmed up and welded.

I have no experience with the SS and high carbon powder question so won't attempt to answer that one.

Good Luck
Jon

Now I have a good reason to try it. I will probably only use 10% SS and with some 1080 and enough cast powder to bring the carbon up to 90% +/-. I will post the results.

I just remembered last night that most muffler tubing is galvanized. Maybe not not such a great idea after all.:eek: So far using 1" mild steel tubing is working good, it has a 1/16" wall so there is not alot of post grind removal to deal with.

There is not alot of info out there yet on can welding so I am flying half blind. But that is how I learn and make new discoveries.

soak the whole tube or cookie cutter in vinigar it will eat off the zink then wire brush and repeet then it should be ok to use

The muffler tubing I've used was large and definately not galvanized. I got the scrap piece at a local muffler shop.

I would go to your local scrap yard and find some 3"-4" square tubing to use, they usually have some shorter pieces laying around. 1" tubing will work but by the time you weld it up and grind the can off you aren't left with much to work with.

Jon

I do not have a press or power hammer so I am somewhat limited by the can size. 1" tube seems to be doable just with a hammer but I will be trying different sizes to see how large I can go before my arm falls off.

Yeh, that would limit the size that I worked with also. I wouldn't want to tackle a 4"-5" square billet by hand either.

Jon

Is it necessary to normalize a can weld billet? I have been waiting until it firms up and then throw in some normalizing cycles. When your billet is done and there is no sign of your can material is that too much processing or just right? I like the idea that the mild steel can burns off and you just have some heat scale to remove.

My second attempt turned out real nice, I used 90% 1084 and 10% stainless powder. The can was a 1 1/4" X 10" long mild steel tube with a 1/16 wall thickness. I have not even etched it yet and the pattern is very unique. The stainless powder really stands out from the 1084. I have no press or power hammer, just used a 3 Lbs. sledge and very gentley "thunked" it until flat. There is a little bit of can steel on the edges to take off.

Thermocycling is always a good idea. It helps with clean up afterwards, ie. grinding, milling, etc. and can do nothing but good to your steel. I always normalize my billets before going to the next welding step.

If you don't have to grind off the can I would consider that a good thing. You are welding it and drawing it out by hand so I would think that you are only working it as much as you have to. I always end up with some can to remove but mine have thicker walls and I can work the billet faster with my hammer.

I've found that the more work time/reheats I can get on a weld the better. I will generally break up simple welds into small steps just for this reason.

Post some pics when you are done!!!!!

I hope this helps.
Jon

" then drill a small hole in the top of your can to let out the trapped gas as the billet is heating up, this way your can won't bulge. You find where it wants to rest so that when it is in your forge the powders won't be falling out of the can (in case the hole is pointed downward)."

Well I did just that and now I have one hell of a heat pit were I drilled a 1/16" vent hole. By the time I grind it away over half of the billet's thickness will be gone. I will stick to the way I did it origianlly and just let the welded seams vent the gases. The seams get cut off. The only way to salvage the billet now is to cut it in half and make two smaller blades from it. It was only 8" long to start with. :cursin :cursin

I drill the hole towards the end of the can. I normally have some loss from it but never alot. What kind/how much carbon material did you put in it to burn the oxygen out? I usually put a small piece of cardboard in the end and then a small squirt of wd40 in the powder when it's about 1/2 filled.

You could cut the billet in half, stack the two pieces side-to-side and weld the two pieces together and draw it out, this way you will have more material to work with.

Damascus processes don't always work every time. You have to expect problems, just try to figure out what went wrong and change your process to suit. Also, don't scrap billets that appear to have failed, put them aside, you may come up with a way in the future to fix them or use them in another way.

Jon

Well, guess I need top eat some crow on exhaust pipe theory. I talked to a shop that specializes in exhaust systems and he said that they aren't galvanized but use a process called "aluminizing" to coat them.

Not sure what they had given me when I used it but it was normal pipe with no coatings, they work on big rigs mostly so it may have been pipe for an intake system?????

So exhaust pipe probably isn't the thing to use for a damascus CAN.

Wouldn't a quick heat in the forge burn the aluminum off? I believe the melt temp is around the high 1200's and were talking a very thin coating on the pipe. Exhaust pipe seams to be good can material and pretty cheap and easy to find too.

Wouldn't a quick heat in the forge burn the aluminum off? I believe the melt temp is around the high 1200's and were talking a very thin coating on the pipe. Exhaust pipe seams to be good can material and pretty cheap and easy to find too.
Do you want that all melted in a puddle in your forge? Really, you can get some high quality iron or steel to use that is pretty dang cheap.

Wouldn't a quick heat in the forge burn the aluminum off? I believe the melt temp is around the high 1200's and were talking a very thin coating on the pipe. Exhaust pipe seams to be good can material and pretty cheap and easy to find too.
I wouldn't burn anything off in my welding forge, but no problem in my forging forge.