I hope this hasnt been beat to death, but, can you explain some techniques on how to get patterns in damascus and some of your tips. I know about twist and ladder. Thanks

OK, Dan!
Looks like nobody wants to answer You question! The reason may be that subject is too large.
Try to search older posts and make your question more specific.

I tried a raindrop patteren by drilling holes 1/4 inch in the depth and then hammered out the billet and when I ground the knife out the pattern was lost where I ground it. How do you get the patteren to be all the way through the billet?

try drilling diffrent size holes and hammerring out as you build layer count several diffrent stages as you go and the diffrent hole sizes make it more dramactic -- have ya tried twisting a billet? i have tried several times to get a good ladder pattern by grinding groves in the billet with an angle grinder as i building layer count but have always had problems trapping flux as i weld it up. i have decided to wait until i receive my press rons is building me before i try anymore ladder pattern. patterns are very easy with a press you do not build flux traps. this is all i have any experience in = i too wish others would chime in- i would like to hear how olins eye is done good luck bb

I tried a raindrop patteren by drilling holes 1/4 inch in the depth and then hammered out the billet and when I ground the knife out the pattern was lost where I ground it. How do you get the patteren to be all the way through the billet?

Dan!
Some patterns just don't go all the way through! For those, You should forge the blade as close to final shape/thickness as possible. It's good to grind it clean before you starting to forge the blade. Try not to change the angle of the forged surface, when grinding to final shape.

Killerknives(what a name :eek: )!
You can make a good ladder pattern after you reached a final layer count! Just cut the grooves to both sides and forge flat.

JD Smith has a really good CD on Damascus patterns. You can contact him at www.hammersmithknives.com or phone him at 617 989-0723

Daniel

Dan it would help if you told what you have to work with forge gas -coal larger tools if any hammer press or good ol hand tools anvil and hammers not that you need any of the larger tools it will help in telling you how to go about certain patterns
bowie

I have a gas forge, and a 75 LB. power hammer. I have tried twist. When you drill the holes for raindrop do you make other folds and drill again. Thanks guys.

I would build the layer count to where I wanted it to be and then pattern. There are two ways to pattern your billet. The first is to make cuts or drill holes and then flatten. Do not fold after patterning. the second is to use dies to pattern and then grind away high spots. the first is the easiest the second gives the cleanest pattern at least I think so. in the first method you have to make the holes closer together down the length of the billet because flattening will draw the billet and strewtch the pattern. this looks good on a ladder but makes a raindrop look kind of funny. you can make spring dies and a holder for you hammer for all kinds or patterns. get Dave Manzer's second video from anvil fire for more info on hammer tooling. with the tools in this video it is possible to make radials and many other mosaic patterns without the use of a press.

Bill, will try this week. Are you talking about a type of fuller? And when you make the dies, what is the right type of steel and how do you heat treat the dies? Thanks

Yes The dies are made in a set like a pair of fullers would be but they are hooked together by a loop of steel I make mine with only one spring but I have seen them with two. In the wild rose video it shows how to make a holder that clamps onto the bottom die of your hammer. The holder then has a hole in it like a hardie hole on an anvil and the dies have a shank welded to the bottom of the spring so that with the shank in the hole of the holder the dies are centered under the hammer's dies. That way you have both hands free to manipulate your billet. My dies are made as simply as I can make them and are not hardened. I just use mild steel for plates and what ever will make the pattern that I want is welded to the plates. This is the same way that I make press dies. I do this for two reasons. The hot billet will draw a set of hardened dies so that after a few uses they are no longer hardened so I see no use to put the extra work into making them. Two, I have used the el chepo mild steel dies that I made for going on three years and they are still working fine and I see no reason to buy more expensive hardenable steel to make the dies with. And besides that dies made from steel that would stay hard with the heat they absorb are going to take some pretty special welding technique so that they will take the beating from the hammer and not break apart. Yeh I know that is three reasons but what the Duck. good luck.

Thanks for the tips. I will make some dies and see if I can get some good results. Will try ladder.

Try this ( it's kind of odd ), take a piece of steel square tubing, fill with flat stock ( bar, scrap, whatever) packed corner to corner. Fill as much of the voids as you can and use contrasting materials. Forge into a square bar ( do not weld close the ends like in powder mosaics ) grind large or medium size recesses in the corners of the square rod like a ladder pattern. Then forge into a flat bar. The last time I did this I got two different patterns. Just be creative. there are hundreds of ways to come up with new things to do.
Raymond Johnson

Thanks for the tip. I do have some square tubing and plenty of scrap. Do you cut the ladder into the tube befor the weld?

No! After you forge into a solid square bar. And try putting the ladder on all four corners. Try doing alternating twist after you get it into a square bar. Bend it into a ball and re- weld it all. No I am not trying to jerk your chain. It's just that the options are endless. I had one billet one time that looked like a banana. It made a great bowie. Try drawing it out after the first forging and repeat the process. Cut it down the middle and re-weld with somethiong in the middle. Have fun. Raymond Johnson

Be careful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are showing classic symptoms of damascus fever!!! Star treatment as soon as possible!!!!!! As once it has reached its mature stage, there is NO KNOWN CURE!!! :p

Think the guys have all given good advice. Some of the most awsome stuff Ive made is done by accident, so take notes, its great to see a new and beautiful patter, but it sucks when you cant reproduce it!! LOL

Dont forget doing canned stuff in square tubing, or muffler pipe. Add some cutter bits, ball bearings, pieces of high carbon chain, just mix it up, and fill with the powder of your choice!!! Kelly Cupples has a great selection. But if you are just wanting to experiment, you can get brake turnings for free from brake shops. Dont know for sure, but I dont think it would make a good cutting edge. But Ive used it for composite type blades that will have a high carbon cutting edge, and it worked great! Canned mosaic is a good way to clean up the shop!! :lol

Just remember rule #1.................................. Have fun!!


God Bless
Mike
Confirmed Damascaholic

Yoy made one thing clear, to use powder in the tube. I wondered about cold shuts. Now, where do you get powder and wat about flux? Thanks

contact kelly cupples for steel and powder 509-728-0057
tellhim Bowie sent ya
Great guy to work with he has other steels to make damascus and will cut to what you need

BOWIE damascus free but not for long hehehehehe

does kelly cupples have a website.
Thanks,
Andy

Andy
No I dont belive he has a web site, just give him a call though, and he will email you his price list. He is himself a knife maker, as well as being a great all around guy, and his prices are some of the cheapest around.

On the powder, there are many here more qualified than I, but here is my take on it.

You start by making a "CAN" . I use thin wall 3" square tubing. Weld a bottom on the can, a piece cut to fit on the inside of the can, and then weld it air tight. I then weld on my handle to the bottom to hold onto it while forging. Add a square of coragated cardboard cut to fit inside the tubing, I add several good drops of oil. Fill with whatever contents you want. Bearings, shavings, bits and pieces of steel, then fill in any leftover voids with the powder. this can range from course (like corn meal) to fine (like flour) depending on the type of steel powder. Next is to vibrate it all down, and add more powder as needed. Add the top plate, and weld with an air tight seam. What you now have is a closed container that is hopefully as full as you can make it, having no large voids inside that are not filled with powder, and is air tight.

Here is what happens when it is taken to welding temperatures.

Once the interior starts to reach heat, the little piece of cardboard with a few drops of oil on it will burn, and in doing so, will use up any remaining O2 inside the can, so you now have a O2 free environment for the varioius metals to weld in. Since no O2 is present, no flux is needed.

Once at welding heat (soak times will vary, but dont skimp on the heat!) the can is worked under flat dies,pressing no more than 1/4 inch per press, rotating a quarter turn each press (from one flat side to the next) until the can has been reduced by 1/3 at this point, if all your pressing was done at or above a welding heat, all the contents "should" be welded. (using a press makes this MUCH more enjoyable!) (Ron "Bowie" Claiborn sells some great ones!!)

I anneal my billets in lime, then once cooled and softened, cut off the ends (1 inch or so) to reveal the pattern. Here is where diffrent tecniques apply. Some folks gring off the can (square tubing), some accordian cut the can and flatten. Kind of depends on what pattern you are making. This can then be cut into 4 equal lengths and re welded into a square billet (to replicate the pattern), or cut into tiles and re welded with the pattern turned to the sides of the blade. Really depends on what the desired end result is.

It is a means to use all types of diffrent material, some in ways that are not possible to do in an O2 environment (like stainless to carbon steel) This is also a way to produce those wonderful "pictures" in a piece of steel. And is limited only by your imagination and your check book!! :D

This is a rough over view of how I do things in MY shop, and is by no means the only way to do things. Just what works for me. And as I said, there are many here who are much more versed on can welding than I am, so ask questions, and take notes. There is a HUGE pool of knowledge here, and some genuinely great guys. So dont be bashful!! Remember, the only "Dumb" question, is the one you dont ask!!!

God Bless
Mike


P.S.
***WARNING***
Making Mosaic damascus has been known to cause insominia in test subjects, and may prove habit forming.
Mike Garner nor Diamond G Knives may be held liable for sleepless nights, Divorces, or Banruptcies, caused by the above information.

This sounds to cool. I could lose some sleep over this. A couple of questions. First, can this be done with a hand hammer of power hammer? Also how thin is the "thin wall square tube"? I have access to thin wall round tube and wouldnt that work?

Dan

Im can only give an opinion on this, because I dont have a power hammer, I have a press.

If you were using a power hammer with flat dies, I belive you could do it, just using softer blows til everything solidifies. You dont want to compress more than a 1/4" on each blow. There is a VERY REAL DANGER of rupturing your can and squishing out molten, or near molten steel all over the place!! While I dont think you would have the control you would have with a press, I "think" it would work. I wouldnt try mosaic pictures, because of the control issues.

On using round tubing, I think it would be fine. Ive heard of guys using muffler pipe with great success. As long as the container is air tight, I dont see a problem.

As far as using a hand hammer, Im sure it could be done, but would require a HUGE amount of work!! You have to do a lot of reduction when doing this. I know I wouldnt want to do it! LOL.

Mabe some of the more experianced guys will chime in here, I have only used a press, and have not done near the work that some of the other guys here have done.

Glad to try and ansewr what I can though!

God Bless
Mike

If you were using a power hammer with flat dies, I belive you could do it, just using softer blows til everything solidifies. You dont want to compress more than a 1/4" on each blow. There is a VERY REAL DANGER of rupturing your can and squishing out molten, or near molten steel all over the place!! While I dont think you would have the control you would have with a press, I "think" it would work. I wouldnt try mosaic pictures, because of the control issues.

No offense, but these kinds of comments are usually given by someone who has never used a power hammer. Some of the least distorted mosaic picture damascus I've ever seen was made by someone with a power hammer. Go look at the stuff made by Cliff Parker, Conny Persson (I'm not as sure about Conny), etc. A press works very differently than a power hammer, so those that use a press seem to think that a hammer will do the same thing, only faster so that there is no control. In my opinion, with practice, there is more control with a hammer than with press.

Of course, none of this was to tell you that you should use a hammer instead of a press. I like hammers better, but that doesn't mean everyone does. A press is a very good peice of equipment, and is better for more things than a hammer, which is pretty much only good for one thing, pounding on things.

which is pretty much only good for one thing, pounding on things.

which is pretty much all you need while forging :D

It is true that I do not have a power hammer, but have used a few. Not saying that it cannot be done, but I belive that a press is just more controlable for what we are talking about here, very even and precise pressing.

And while It wasnt my goal to pro offer one over the other, the main isuue I was trying to make was that a can full of molten or semi molten powder can have devistating results if handled improperly!

God Bless
Mike

I can see how busting the can could be a real problem. Could it help if I started with a rectangler tube and tried forge welding and do 2 and then weld these together. My hammer is air driven and I can adjust the air where strokes are light. How much do you have to reduce to know you have good welds. Seems to me that once the welds are good you could cut the can off and just forge? Love this thread and the answers you guys are giving me. Please keep them coming.

Dan
The rule of thumb is to reduce by 1/3.

I dont know what you would gain by starting with a rectangle. Just forge it down 1/4" at a time and you should be fine.

And yes, once everything is welded up, you can take the can off and forge just like normal.

Good Luck, and keep us posted on how it works for you!!

God Bless
Mike

I have a few pages for pattern welding I've done in the past here:
http://www.100megsfree3.com/kragaxe/as/damascus/Damascus.html


There's a lot that can be done with a twist if you've got that down well. Do a pair of twisted billets, teisted in opposite directions. Weld them to each other...now you have a chevron pattern. Twist up a bar, round it up then grind it square, then twist it again. Weld a couple tight twisted bars to each other, then twist the whole thing......endless ideas!

I was thinking of twisting a raindrop pattern and calling it "the plague pattern". :lol

Well, you guys sure are enthusiastic, but I have to disagree a little. Once you start talking about ladder patterning, then twisting, then raindropping it, you start to get a little ridiculous (no one's said this, but it's getting there). They've all been done, trust me. You know why you've never seen it done regularly or in commercial damascus? Because it's not that exciting.

Well, you guys sure are enthusiastic, but I have to disagree a little. Once you start talking about ladder patterning, then twisting, then raindropping it, you start to get a little ridiculous (no one's said this, but it's getting there). They've all been done, trust me. You know why you've never seen it done regularly or in commercial damascus? Because it's not that exciting.
I agree, but let them to try :101

Someone have adresses of sites which have a table or pics with the kinds, the patterns of damascus steel, only to have an idea?

thanks

i've made ladder and raindrop patterns by cutting or drilling , this being done after final layer count . what i'm going to say next is my opnion , please correct me if i'm wrong . when useing a die to press in a pattern , you're changing the steel under it , so you'll keep the pattern put in it after the high spots are ground off . when drilling or cutting and then forgeing the billet flat it's possible to lose the pattern if too much metal is removed when finish grinding for the simple fact nothing was changed under the drill or cut , only that metal that is forged out . or another way of putting it - when pressing in a pattern you're changing it all the way through , when cutting in a pattern the only change is in the surface that's left after forging . i've gotten nice patterns by drilling , but it's always been done with very little metal removal after forging flat . JMHO - paul

i went and posted after the first page , then noticed 3 pages . use as thin a " can " as you can find . i use 3" sq. tubing about .060 thick , 3" long in my press . weld about 1/4" thick ends on INSIDE of the can so as they don't break loose . by the time it's worked down to a useable size , the can material is so thin it will disappear when grinding the finished blade . hope this helps - paul