Just thought you would like to know I have written another artical for Blade Mag. The title is (Why forge) to be published this year. I seems i failed in my attempt to explain some basic mis information on what happens in the forging process. I hope to clarify what I attempted to say. The modern myths artical was not an attempt to defame anyone or an excepted practice. There is just a lot of excepted bad information that just keeps floating because of antidotal evidence.

It is like saying every one I know that has had cancer drank water . Water must be a factor in its cause. I could prove water was not the cause by clinical research. Then some one would say what if the water was laced with Dioxen. All damascus steel with two exceptions is made by forging. Forging has it place in everything we do as custom bladesmiths. Forging is a form of thermo cycling. The blade is going from hot to cold as it comes from the fire to the cold anvil. In very skilled hands the damascus or single steel structure can be improved by forging . But majority of the improvement is caused by cycling the material in and out of the fire. This is just one old mans opinion. If I am wrong dont tell me! Show me where and we can both learn somthing. I dont have blinders on where new tecniques and and ideas are concerned.

In very skilled hands the damascus or single steel structure can be improved by forging . But majority of the improvement is caused by cycling the material in and out of the fire.

Is it about "edge packing" You talkin here? :D Be aware! Subject can create an allmost religious fury! :D

How ever - it's easy to find out what improves structure when steel is forged. Just take a steel bar, heat it and forge only one side(lenghtwise) Then harden and break it. Both sides are equally cycled in and out of the fire!
Different steels can give a different result but in simple carbon steel You may see a clear difference between forged and nonforged side. So there is something that can't be done just by any thermal cycling. But as I mentioned - it depends what steel is used. Some steels are naturally small grained, some naturally large grained. With some steels(usually alloy steels) a grain growth is not a big problem.

With huge variety of steels, technics and equipment used today by knifemaker, one can't say there is one and only right way to do it.

About bad information.
Some ifo, claimed to be bad is not so bad at all :)

I have no argument with anything you have said here. The edge grain can be refined by proper forging. Dr Verhoven and several other top metal experts tell me steel cannot be compressed with ordinay means. volume cannot be reduced unless there is spacefor it to move into caused by voids in the material. Powder metal can be reduced by volume about 35% because it has space to compress into. One pound of powder metal will weigh one pound after being forged it will just be 1/3 smaller in volume. You cannot further reduce its volume once you have removed the voids. Most standard knife making steels do not have that empty space. It is removed when it is melted prior to forging.. The old black smiths in the USA believed they were compressing the steel making it more dense by forging . When in fact they were refining the grain. If you could compress steel every closed die forging company in the world would be a very happy lot. Like you said forge a blade and break it . Visually it will apear finer on the edge if it is properly forged. The steel is not physically denser. But then again maby water does cause cancer. The beauty of these forums is the passing of knowledge over great distances. The world is full of very tallented people including Mr Tonn. Thank you for your input.

I know steel can't be compressed! "Edge packing" is just an old name for old way to refine steel grain and I don't see any reason to use any other name for it. Even if it does not reflect correctly what happens with steel.


What I wanted to point out is that forging makes a difference. In equally cycled steel, forged part has a finer grain. So it's not that...as You seed:
But majority of the improvement is caused by cycling the material in and out of the fire.

The fact that a fine grain can be achieved with heat treating is irrelevant.

Keep up the good work Steve :101 All fields eventually make it to the current century, pehaps one day bladesmithing will as well ;)

Most heat treating companys would disagree fine grain through proper heat treating makes a superior product. I never bid on a horses I have won at auction. I agree improvement can be made by proper forging. I dont know what steels you use but I get very good results by cycling the materials I use. Some of my very advanced mosaic projects do not like to be forged after thay are welded. But they still need to cut a give very good performance as a blade. I have a friend who will not het treat unless it is night and the blade aligned due north. He also gets a very good result from his work. You cannot convince him he is mis informed. He has the proof in his work. His beliefs do not affect the quality of his work in any fashion. His dad tought him and that is just the way it is

The only reason I object to the use of the term edge packing is because as MR Tonn says (it does not correctly reflect what happens with the steel). It is miss information.
I stated in my article that the majority of the improvement in the forging process involves the proper heating and cooling of the worked material. I used the term thermo cycling. If you forge a blade using too high a temperature it will not produce a good result. You also can get a bad result from forging too cold. Cold working can form stress risers that can break or warp a blade in heat treatment. The heat range any given steel is worked in is critical. It becomes more critical as the steels being worked are more complex in alloy content. I have a close personal friend who is capable of cold forging complex steels. There are no absolute statements in the art of Bladesmithing.
Mr. Tonn stated (The fact that a fine grain can be achieved with heat treating is irrelevant.) It is in fact is the most relevant part of producing a properly forged blade.
I state again (steel can be improved by forging). We have no argument.
Using the term packing when applied to your own work is a personal choice.
I choose to describe my work as accurately as possible. In the early years of blade smithing there was not much scientific research going on. It was all observed knowledge gained from working the materials at hand. With the work of a few modern smiths teamed with the top metallurgists in the country we began to see a clear picture of not only the macro or visible structure of the steel but we also began to gain knowledge about the micro structures that actually cause the steel in question to react the way it does. This began to dispel some of the mythology involved in an ancient tradition. Steel is not packed or compressed. It is refined by proper forging and heating technique. Here is a tip to you new guys. Most of the old hands have figured this out already.
Any forge welded material needs to be thermo cycled. The high heats involved in forge welding grow grain. You may wonder why you are having a lot of shearing problems while working pattern welded material. I good portion of the time it is because of excessive grain growth from the welding phase of the project. Thermo cycling will allow you to refine the grain with out distorting your image or pattern.
I love packing steel. I love to pack steel powder metal into a can and make something beautiful out of it. Mr. Tonn is very correct when he say there are many ways to get a good result. It is the inventive mind of the modern bladesmith that is driving the cutlery world to wonderful new discoveries. We should all apply our selves to gaining as much knowledge form each other as we can. We can all disagree and widen the field of accumulated knowledge. I shall in the future try to expalin my thoughts a little more clearly. Just my opine worth what you just paid for it.

Dear mr Schwarzer!
There is a big misunderstanding!
First -
When I read You first post I thougt You mean that , when forging, cycling a steel in & out of fire(important, but not the only part in forging) makes more improvement than hitting the steel with hammer. That's simply not a true!
That's why I replyed.

Second - and it's a bit funny!!
Using the term packing when applied to your own work is a personal choice.
Well..... my home language is not english. Therefore term for what ever it is is not "edge packing" Actually there is no term for that at all!!
I used it here to reply to Your post (guess its wise to reply in english :) )
Personally I do not use packing. Tool steels (they are from last centuri, not current :rolleyes: ) I use for damascus don't like forging in lower temps.

Was nice to discuss anyway!
Good luck

Steve,

Wasn't the function of packing in regard to damascus designed to tighten and upset the layers along the cutting edge into each other to allow for a fine sawtooth edge?

Yes and no my friend of the frozen north. The purpose of forging down the edge is to produce a very fine grain in damascus or mono steel.. The visual effect of closing the pattern tightly is not the same as refining the grain by forging or thermo cycling. A saw tooth edge is not the best for extended cutting. In rough work the very edgy blades will shuck off the saw tooth effect very quickly. Most damascus becomes equil in carbon content very quickly in the welding stage. There are exceptions. Mainly those with high nickle content. The ni slows the carbon migration. The saw tooth edge in the micro structure has to do with how small the carbides are formed after forging and heat treating.
The visual or macro structure tends in layered material to to follow the forging pattern. When etched the alloy difference gives a topographic ( sorry about my spelling)effect
the finer the visual pattern the finer the etched edge pattern. This mechanical (for lack of a better term) edge has nothing to do with the micro grain structure.
This is why i use all high carbon steel in my layered cutting edges. A lot of the old timers felt a rough edge cut meat better. Any old or modern butcher shop use steels to sharpen their cutting edges. All that steel does is straighten the fine edgee and burnish it to an extremly fine cutting edge. Not much saw tooth involved. You can find any number of people who will argue this point. My prefference is for a very tough fine grained cutting edge. You want to cut your meat with a saw it is ok withme.
your friend schwarzer

I have learned to also thermo cycle my damascus before twisting. I have less shearing at the edges. It also saves on all the animals ears. :)

This is why i use all high carbon steel in my layered cutting edges. A lot of the old timers felt a rough edge cut meat better. Any old or modern butcher shop use steels to sharpen their cutting edges. All that steel does is straighten the fine edgee and burnish it to an extremly fine cutting edge. Not much saw tooth involved. You can find any number of people who will argue this point. My prefference is for a very tough fine grained cutting edge. You want to cut your meat with a saw it is ok withme.



Just to play Devil's advocate... :evil

In every theory of saw-tooth edges I've heard, the saw-tooth occurs after sharpening and a bit of use, when the differences in layer hardnesses cause differences in wear. I don't think that carbon-content need be the principle culprit in creating such possibilities, btw... I suspect that a manganese or a non-carbon related nickel issue could theoretically make a difference The saw-tooth argument is a funny one, because it seems to have been original gospel that was debunked and now, has found some small, educated following again. I believe Mr. Cashen has addressed the issue some.

According to Figiel, in On Damascus Steel, wootz has a superior ability to cut flesh due to the variation in hardess along the edge. Or at least such quality has been attributed to wootz for just about one millenium...

Ahh, myths. Old wives' tales. They almost always contain some grain of truth, (pardon the pun.) I always ask myself why a myth exists before completely debunking it. Quite another function of such mythic bladesmithing ritualization as quenching due North is simply to give the Smith's conscious mind something to focus on, so the rest can work intuitively & smoothly. But *that* is a digression.

I do not, for what it is worth, quench North, but rather straight down; toward the realm of the Dwarves & the inferno of molten iron that makes up the Earth's core! :)