Do you feel this is the way to go and all it does is avoid your buying the equipment and learning how to use it? So then, you do some assemly and finishing work just like working on a kit knife. Does the making of the parts in your shop make the finished knife better? What if you were to get some factory to make the knives for you and you placed your name on them and then put them out for sale as you having made them? Is it just the finished quality that matters and how it gets to that state has little to do with selling it? It is obvious that a lot of folders being sold by some makers have had a huge helping hand in preassembly preparation. Should it all be left to the buyer to decide and choose what is completely made by a maker and if not, what can be done to slow some of this down. I have had one make tell me that by having this one part cut out by a specialty company is inexpensive and saves him hours of work. Why not have all parts cut out and pre shaped? Perhaps, it just comes down to what each person wants to do and goes with. I would like to hear your ideas on this growing attitude of having someone else do some of the work with some pretty high teck equipment and then claim the credit for all of the work with a possible simple statement if someone asks, saying I don't want to spend the money to buy the equipment to do that with just now. Thanks for your remaks either for or against the farming out of work other than engraving and scrimshaw which have always been there. Frank

depends on the part (and how many)? i dont have a bandsaw nor do i intend to get one any time soon, now if i need a sheild for a small folder i see no problem asking some one to cut me a sheild and send it to me then one the discription of the knife id put 'sheild by.....' just like you do when some one engraves your knife. now if someone get their blade laser cut or even simple cut out somewhere else thats another story. its like that one episode of occ (the fireman bike) every part was outsourced occ put it all together then stamped occ on it. but in the end it comes down to what you can take credit for then look in the mirror and also who can catch you at it. if this become the trend we all can save some time go buy a $50 knife at the mall grind off the name etch ours on it and do some filework and call it our own.


bill

Are you a knife maker or a knife manufacturer?

Having parts made that way should only be considered if you are a full time maker (my opinion) because only then is time a critical factor. It literally could make the difference in making a living and starving. Even so, you MUST make a full disclosure to any prospective customer as to how the knife was made. Generally, you will find that people who buy custom or hand made knives expect them to be exactly that if they are going to pay the big bucks. Knives with manufactured parts have been referred to as Mid-Tech lately. Such knives can be every bit as good and functional and attractive as a fully hand made knife but they usually have to be sold at a lower price. Of course, with less time in the knife, selling at a lower price isn't a big problem.

Where is the advantage to a hand made knife? Why would someone buy your handmade knife over a really good factory knife? Answer those questions and then decide what the difference would be in your Mid-Tech knife and a knife sold by Benchmade whose knife parts are all cut out by machines but are assembled and fitted by hand. When you can define the difference you'll know what to do about your original question......

Frank your post smacks of an agenda. :) This one gets rehashed every year or so. :)

Let me use an inaccurate example: Frank, it takes you 3 hours to profile, drill and shape a rough blade and liners from stock. Sending YOUR design out to get this labor intensive and low-engineered work now saves you 2 1/2 hours.

All of a sudden you can either: spend 2 1/2 hours more on even better filework on your knives to sell at the same cost, or you can finish them up similarly with all your trimmings and sell them for less.

Letting your client know that you can't be bothered spending that much time on non essential and time consuming work, when in the end they probably are more interested in your designs, and fit and finish, rather than some plasma cutting machine that cuts out blanks somewhere else.

As Ray aptly pointed out--knifemaking IS a business. You need to figure out what will keep you afloat.

(The film guys initially despised digital cameras because it took a LOT less time in the long run. Now look what's happened.)

Coop

So, the differences are do I want to make more money per hour, and am I comfortable with what I'm doing? Why is there a need to tell the buyer anything about how it is done? He is paying for what he sees and if he is willing to put out the money then where is the problem? This is not my way to go but I am interested in what I call the "manufactures" approach. More comments please. Frank

Let me toss something in the mix here. What if that plasma cutter/cnc/whatever is in your own shop? You are still doing the time saving bit, but now it's at ground zero rather than at Ralph's Slice'em-N-Dice'em down on the corner. How would this differ?? I know of makers who do this and still call them 'hand made'. To me neither should be classified that way, yet they are doing it and getting the big bucks. I'm all in favor of using whatever tool is available, but there has to be a line somewhere.

Wulf

So, the differences are do I want to make more money per hour, and am I comfortable with what I'm doing?Substitute the word 'or' to replace 'and' . It truly is a choice you make, and need to feel comfortable doing.Why is there a need to tell the buyer anything about how it is done? At that point, then you are into deceptivity. As a collector, I am purchasing the knife as a representation of the maker's character. I don't care if he uses Plasma cutters to profile the easy labor. I only care that he told me.

*IF* he has told me about it's construction in honesty, then I will wish to own his work. If he engages in deceptivity then I don't want to spend money on a *'handmade' knife from him. There are thousands of others looking for my business.Let me toss something in the mix here. What if that plasma cutter/cnc/whatever is in your own shop? You are still doing the time saving bit, but now it's at ground zero rather than at Ralph's Slice'em-N-Dice'em down on the corner. How would this differ??It's the same thing, only even better for them. I know of makers who do this and still call them 'hand made'. To me neither should be classified that way, yet they are doing it and getting the big bucks. I'm all in favor of using whatever tool is available, but there has to be a line somewhere.This begs the question once again of 'where is the line?' Why is that plasma cutter any different from a drill press. That's a power tool, too. Why is a bandsaw more acceptable than plasma. One is simply faster and more efficient than the other. I want work that is the best quality from a maker. I don't care how he achieves it.

Generally the folks who are in opposition to this type of manufacture are those who may not have the resources to do so. In a capitalist society, you need to do whatever it takes to have more value than your competitor. Than may include a statement that your parts are completely hand-profiled and take more time to make. At least that will explain why you need to charge more...

And you client base may agree it is worth the extra. Stay focused on your market.

I like these threads. It's good to knock it around and get folks to open their minds a bit. :)

* handmade: using no power tools whatsoever. I don't think so....

Coop

Lest you think I am completely pro-machine, I will offer an example: If Wolfe Loerchner were to start using CNC instead of his handmade files to make his dramatic pieces, then I would probably not want one. At least at the same price he commands now.

There truly is value in more, OK I'll say it, handmade work. :) For some.

Coop

I'd like to interject a different slant on Frank's question. The answers so far assume that the knifemaker is making knives to make a living or a profit.

There are more reasons for making a knife than just to earn money. For instance, I can earn more money per hour doing almost anything else other than knifemaking.

Coop, I think you can empathize with this statement: I make knives for my own personal satifaction and enjoyment. There's nothing else that gives me the great sense of satisfaction I get when one of my knives is taking shape and finally finished. It has my soul in it. It's a part of me. It represents the best I can do. I can find a way to improve it, but it's good enough to suit me.

Coop, don't you feel the same with your photos?

Annnddd,,,, if the buyer gets the knife in person, I watch the expression on his face and in his eyes as he takes it and handles it the first time. That's priceless, and money can't buy that!

Of course, I do enjoy making my knives for buyers, too. I love their new ideas and innovative thoughts and enjoy making them come alive.

Money is a very small part of my knifemaking. :) I do it because I want to. :D

Looks like I need to expand on some of my earlier remarks. To me the issue isn't whether or not a maker uses a plasma cutter or a bandsaw to profile his blades. There is absolutely no difference in that case. What is different is if the maker uses or has someone else use a computer controlled plasma cutter to profile his blades. That's manufacturing, and the maker probably isn't even doing it himself (few can afford the equipment). Again, it doesn't hurt the utility of the knife but it does affect whether or not the maker can honestly promote that knife has completely of his own creation and, especially, as hand made.

As Don said, money is a small part of why we do what we do. But, in my opinion, the reason why anyone would have parts cut out by some process like we're discussing is primarily based in financial considerations, i.e., he wants to save time so that he can make more money per hour. There's no other reason to do it. There is no reason why a hobbyist maker would need to have blades cut beyond just being lazy. A full time maker might feel compelled to do it but his reasons would have a financial basis. I've recently been struggling with this idea myself . If I do it, each of those blades will carry a different logo than my usual stuff to identify them as mid-tech and their pricing will reflect that fact........

So, here is where I am at and most comfortable with . I do, what I want as best I can all the time with what equipment I have which is probably a lot less than some. I do not have a surface grinder or a milling machine, nor am I looking to get either. And like the man said what if you have the plasma cutter in your shop and have learned to operate it? I believe if the knife has high quality fit, finish, and stlying, what is the difference how, or who made it. If it's that good, then its that good. Frank

Amen. Frank, you keep on keepin' on. Make sure you let folks know you are 100% doing things slow and steady, and provide great service and communication in return.

That's the most important thing. I believe you.

Don, like Frank, you don't want nor need the higher production 'manufacturing' machines (as Ray labels them.) in your shop. It ain't about the extra bucks or time efficiency for you either.

My responses were directed to the pointed comments on those who DO choose to do it this way. Let them have at it. Hopefully there is disclosure from them all along the way. Just because a progressive maker decides to raise his bar doesn't make them a bad guy. This is a business for them and business is hardball.

You guys don't have this problem and unless you are getting your a** kicked financially by those who may, then don't worry about it.

Coop

I wish I had the machining skills of Chris Reeve. I would have to say every cut on this thing is machine made. Does that make him an any less skilled craftsman or artisan? The point may be, to have the ability to conceptualize and bring an object to fruition, rather than how it is done.
http://i17.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/63/69/5a_12_sb.JPG

I wish I had the machining skills of Chris Reeve. I would have to say every cut on this thing is machine made. Does that make him an any less skilled craftsman or artisan? The point may be, to have the ability to conceptualize and bring an object to fruition, rather than how it is done.


No, Hammerdownow, mass production by Chris Reeve is an art form by itself. he is certainly a skilled artisan. I remember when he started making those one-piece knives using a milling machine and an indexer with a tailstock in his machine shop in South Africa. you ought to buy that one. They may be getting scarce now.

Let me say that I have all those skills, too. I can design anything my little mind conjures up, write CNC programs, design and make fixtures, etc., just as Chris does. Having someone else actually do the making, however, ie: an employee, and mass producing thousands of identical, nearly perfect knives wouldn't give me the pleasure I get from making a unique, one-of-a-kind knife using my own imagination, skills, and yes, even as Ray says, my sophisticated methods and manual machines to do everything myself using my skills and my own hands.

I'm a very heavily skilled tool and die maker and manufacturing engineer. I have a fully equipped machine shop, but no CNC or other automatic machines. I use a metal lathe, milling machine, surface grinder, and all kinds of machinery to make a knife. That's what I enjoy doing, but I use my own hands and mind to do it. I just let the machine do the work.

Even so, I'll put in an average of 20 hours not including 12 hours of heat treating on any knife. Those hours are most enjoyable, but the real thrill is the moment when it's finished.

Like the artisans here who use only hand tools to produce a knife, I certainly could make more money doing something else, but this is what I live my life for now. I never give a thought to the income produced.

After all these years designing and making hundreds of knives of all descriptions, I still give one away once in awhile to someone who can't afford to buy it, but appreciates the knife for what it is.

So I'll sum up by saying I could hire someone else to make the parts and make more money, but that ain't what I'm in the game for. To each his own. :)

I agree totally with you Don. Every person should follow his own path and do it in a way that brings them the most enjoyment. The thing that really gets me is the pressure put on to be unique and original. To me that only leads to those ugly fantasy blades. A well thought out and executed classic pattern is much more beautiful. Example, those little screw in button guards on the Reeves knife may appear to be an inovation, but I have a pic of a Sheffield Bowie with the same type of guard.

Sounds like the right way to go!

Now there you go Darrel ! If it wasn't for you there wouldn't be all those fine folder kits for people to enjoy making, selling. and giving away. And that price!! I can't buy the Damascus for the blade for the price those are sold at. I sure wish they were around several years ago. It's amazing what can be learned from quality stuff like that!!! Frank

I envy those who have the luxery of saying money isn't important in knifemaking. That's the difference between a hobby and a business or profession. How many people are mail carriers, or cashiers at Walmart just because they "love the work?" Most people don't take up being a cashier at Walmart as a hobby. But people do take up knifemaking as a hobby and use income from other sources (such as their reguar job) to pay for it all. There's a big difference!

I know. i started out years ago with knifemaking as a hobby / art project and have seen it grow into a business. ANY business must be run on a professional basis and must result in a profit. Otherwise you go broke.

Now that said, I am currently looking at advanced CNC controlled machinery for my shop. Machine tools that cost nice juicy 5 figure amounts. I can't wait to get one of these babies up and running and see what new possibliities that will open for designs and products I can't even think of now. I remember what new worlds were opened up for me through my hobby milling machine and my World war II vintage surface grinder.

The key is, as has been stated here by other posters, is HONESTY AND CLARITY with one's customers! The more I have learned about machine tool operations, the more I can instantly tell what knives were made with what type of technology. A LOT of knives on the market are made usung advanced machines and many more makers than one might think use CNC machinery either directly or indirectly. Some makers talk about and others don't. The economics speak for themselves. Most of these makers are professional knifemakers who derive their livlyhood from making knives. There is a ton of planning that goes into having even simple parts made. Most hobby makers have neither the time nor the experience to get something made that's more complicated than some simple water jet rough blanking. For one knife, it's easier to cut the #### thing by hand.

What's important then is that the Makers also speak for and about their products. As long as the customer is honestly informed of what he or she is buying, then I think the free market rules. When people start telling lies or engaging in deception, than I think that's crap and damages the entire knife industry.

Kevin,
Honesty is the best policy. There are many tales that float in the knife industry. Most of them are BS. It is easier to just tell the truth.

A knife maker can make a knife any way they want imho. The customer is the deciding factor in what is bought not the maker next to you at a show.

Thanks for the kind words on the kits. We try hard to make them well and give good value for the money.

My son is now making customs with me here in my shop. He is a good maker . He will be a good addition to the community.

Darrel you are so right: honesty is the best policy. You are one of the Makers who come to mind when I say people who use advanced machine technology in their shops and talk directly and honestly about it with their customers. Kit Carson and Neil Blackwood are two others. Tell the customers the truth and let them decide what they want and what they want to pay for. That's what you guys do and that's my policy as well.

Personally I don't want to confine myself to files and sandpaper. But hey, if a guy wants to do that, fine by me.

Another point: if we look at the standards set today by the (mostly) American production knife companies, we see some VERY high quality and design standards. If custom (whatever that means) makers want to continue to get and hold customers, then the custom makers are also going to have to raise their qualty standards too in order to meet Benchmade and Microtech. The days of delivering shoddy liner locking folders and getting people to pay big dough for them are limited I think. Custom makers will see ever rising quality in production knives and for the buyer of a User Knife, the reasons for buying a custom get narrower. CNC controled machines in the maker's shop allow the production of extreme high quality product in an amount of time that still alows a profit without rasing the price of the knife above the moon. The market for $3000+ knives is limited.

And a word to those who think if a maker has a CNC machine he needs only type in "Cool Knife" and watch the knives shoot out ready to sell: foget about it!!! CNC machines require a compleate knowledge of how to make the product with conventional machines AS WELL as the ability to handle computers and software AS WELL as te ability to get the computer to get the #### machine to do what you want. Folks, this is some real hard stuff to figure out when the rent is due. CNC machines are a major factor MORE difficult to use than conventional machines... of course, once you have mastered the thing.... :101

Kevin,
Thanks for the good words.
CNC is not what people think it is .
The parts are still roughed and have to be completely finished to make the knife right.
I hand rub every blade every knife that comes out of my shop. The frames all have to be hand sanded with extreme care, then hand rubbed to make them as high quality as possible.
There is no substitute for hand work.

I've been reading this and hearing echoes in my own work.

I have "machines" that great writers in the past didn't have. Even though nothing I make qualifies as art, things like word processing and pdf don't give me an unfair advantage. I still type from the home row like everyone else.

I still spend hours observing what I can and trying to figure things out. I collect and reject materials, try to develop understanding and skill with them and try to master different styles.

My fancy tools just help me meet minimum standards and make basic reproduction easier, similar to CNC machining. I have to come up with every idea on my own, figure out how to present it and finish it myself.

I know that this is what CNC equipment owners do too. I've seen a lot of it used. These people are using their minds and hands every bit as much as the next top maker, and no less.

Knifemaking is thinking. You go through hundreds of decisions, steps and tasks so that when you're done the physical renders what you saw in your mind. You use the tools and skills necessary to make it look most like your thoughts, not less.

And the customer makes the final decision on everything. I had a guy refuse to pay my full rate for a piece of work for him. "It's only one freakin' page and it only took you an hour!" he told me. He wasn't interested in the five hours of preparation and the years of skill I honed to deliver his project in an hour.

It's all determined by quality, value and utility. I don't know. I ain't got it all figured out either. But I'm down.

Well, I don't have to be earning a living from it to own expensive equipment, and why do I have to excuse myself for using it? If you are doing quality work, then it is quality work no matter how you get there. How many buyers actually care how it was made if the work is that good, and why should they? You are still the one doing it, only you are going through the machine. The fact that you have the machines and can do it faster doesn't mean it will be made better or more in demand than when you made it without having those pieces of equipment. I have five inexpensive drill press in my shop. Do you believe a knife collector wants to know that? A few years back one was concidered to be lots and if you talked to my wife, well why did I ever need that one if a hand tool of some sort would work? I aquired more because it helped me to do what I wanted to do in what I thought was an easier and better way. I didn't get them because I thought it would help me up my production or earn me more money. What I am saying is we do not have to explain or excuse how or with what, we do, to achieve quality results. For most of us the desire to do better is always there. Some may better afford to try doing it with more involved equipment and with it move to a higher level of quality as a result. For some of us, the new equipment will may lead us to a new learning to operate level, the results in our work may in fact be faster but without the quality improvement we hoped for. Frank

Frank,
Progress is a change in the force around us. There will be folks that will feel un comfortable with the change and add negative comments and thoughts about those who move forward.

I personally like both worlds.
Hand work and high tech work.
I have been asked 5 times in the last 10 years "by collectors" how I make my knives if that means anything. The most chatter I have heard is from other makers that what to stay in their comfort zone. I want to say this does not mean ALL makers. Just some point the finger and comment.

This should say something to everyone.
Some of us as humans have the never ending quest to do better and constantly improve.
Time waits for no person. We are really "dust in the wind".

Most of my customers appreciate the fact that my knives are made solely by me in my shop, including the damascus steel. Some of them are interested in the technology or lack thereof but some don't care at all. I'm not a machinist - the most sophisticated machine being used in my shop is a surface grinder - but in my mind, a skilled machinist is an artist too.

I did recently acquire a nice milling machine (vintage Gorton 8-1/2D) which will be up and running soon. I won't be milling blades and such on it, but it's going to be real handy for cutting locks in liner lock folders, slotting guards, machining autos and lots of support work for things I need in my shop, like power hammer and press dies. Is this going to make me less of an artist than I was?

My roots are in blacksmithing, from the age of 14. When I first started making knives, I liked to refer to myself as a traditionalist. I am somewhat less of a traditionalist these days but perhaps a better artist, thanks in part to tools like the surface grinder, power hammer, press and soon the milling machine. There's a term sometimes used in the knife world: Purist. Somebody who performs every aspect of making their knives, themselves. I do consider myself a purist and I'm kind of proud of that

Tradition is great and I respect those who cling to it; I still own a coal forge that's probably 150 years old. But who in history was more innovative than the blacksmith, especially when it came to tools which made his job easier or enabled him to produce a better product? For those who are locked up in traditions and look sideways at technicians, ask yourself this: If you could bring a blacksmith forward in time from the 18th century to present day, how long do you think it would be before he was running a milling machine? A week, maybe? How much longer until he would get his arms around CNC?

Just a thought...

[QUOTE=hammerdownnow] A well thought out and executed classic pattern is much more beautiful. Example, those little screw in button guards on the Reeves knife may appear to be an inovation, but I have a pic of a Sheffield Bowie with the same type of guard.[/QUOTE

And I believe you've seen one of my recent barlows made of completely up to date materials and turned into a linerlock. :cool:

That's the sort of thing I enjoy. Taking something already good, changing it, and making it myself. I like unique knives of all types.

That's why I choose not to use patterns, fixtures, etc. or do mass production. I do, however, use all my skills and use machines (and computers) that let me do it the fastest and easiest way for me. I let the machines do the work when I can. :)

Oh yeah Don, I remember your Barlow. I had it up as my wallpaper for awhile. Did you happen to see the pic I posted on the folding knife forum of the old Sheffield Barlow? It is believed to be the origin of the pattern. A nostalgic pattern, it is sturdy and can stand a lot of abuse. That makes it a good choice for a boys first knife. I think it would make for a popular kit knife. Dads making their sons a knife just like their first knife. My son (6yrs.) bought me a "Daddy Barlow" at the flea market cuz daddy likes knives and it said Daddy on it. It is by far my greatest treasure.
link to barlow thread (click here) (http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26572)

Man, that really is an old one. If I remember correctly, they sold a pattern like that as a boy scout knife?

I'd forgotten that pattern, using a drop point blade. The barlows I like have the single clip blade and small handle, like the ones I've made. Beautiful shape, to me. Just right foe cleaning under finger nails, sharpening a pencil, or light whittling.

Beg your pardon, but that one in your picture is just plain ugly. ;)

Remember the game telephone? Where you would whisper a word or phrase in someones ear and they would pass it around the room and it would totally change by the time it got to the last person in line. I was wondering if the same thing would happen if you told a maker a pattern and had him grind it 100 times taking each blade away as it was done.

Doesn't scribing a pattern in steel count as "cheating: as much as having a blade EDM'ed? If you have a model of a knife, don't you owe it to your customers to be as true to that model as possible?

I had some throwing knife blanks EDM'ed. Man does it knock off some time just to pick one out and start hammering it, (the part I like) rather than cutting,scribing and profiling it first. each one is much closer to the last that way also. It is hard enough for me to hammer two the same as it is.