View Full Version : which oil for 1095


kyle juedes
09-04-2004, 12:26 AM
Is canola oil a desent oil to heat treat 1095? It is the oil that my mom had at hand so thats what i have used lately on some o1 that i had. If not canola what kind of oil would you recomend?

Thanks,
KJ

Quenchcrack
09-04-2004, 04:29 PM
Kyle, I was waiting to see what the experts suggested but for some reason, we are not attracting a lot of replies. 1095 is a fairly forgiving steel and can be hardended with a water quench. I would rate canola as a light and fast oil. Yes, I think you can use it to harden 1095. If you have used it without warping your blade, I would say you are OK. You might want to heat it up to about 120F if you do get warping. :D

That being said, I would really like to hear the opinions of the folks who have used it.

rlinger
09-04-2004, 11:50 PM
1095 is a shallow hardening steel. It is a water quench steel. However, our steels are relatively thin and a oil quench for us should be okay. I have never quenched 1095 except for Thunderforged damascus which has both O1 and 1095 composition. Two cases, one in off the shelf vegi oil preheated to about 125 F and then one in Brownell's Tough-Quench preheated to about 105 F. Both blades turned out superb as far as edge retension goes. I have also triple water quenched Thunderforged. On the third water quench the thin edge rippled (that is very nasty).

1095 should be introduced to quench extremely quick. Time from oven to quench should not exceed 1 second. Some profess that is too long.

RL

Chuck Burrows
09-05-2004, 12:38 AM
here's a little info re: 1084 vs 1095 from Terry Primos-something to think about:
"You may well find yourself getting more consistent results and fewer problems in heat treating with 1084 than with 1095. This is in part because of the additional manganese present in 1084. Manganese slightly increases the strength of ferrite, and also increases the hardness penetration in the quench by decreasing the critical quenching speed."

Of course 1084 is hard to find theses days bu the 1080 so far seems just fine.

Roger the technically "nose" for 1095 is .6 seconds - but the current batch available has been all over the board as to carbon content - if much under .90 carbon I'd suggest suing the 1084 specs for heat treating.


Kyle - canola should work fine for 1095, most of the guys I know use something similar, personally I've always liked peanut oil since it has the highest flash point of all the vegetable oils.

Quench although 1095 - and the other 10xx series are technically water quench steels, I can't think off hand anyway of any of the knife smiths, even those top end forgers such as Don Fogg & Tai Goo, who use water when quenching blades.

kyle juedes
09-05-2004, 12:50 AM
How is it even possible to quench in .6 seconds? Where can i get my hands on some 1080? I know admiral sells it, but last i checked, you had to pay $25 on small quantities. Are there any other options?

Thanks,
KJ

rlinger
09-05-2004, 01:06 AM
Admiral, last I spoke to them about it (in May I believe), refers to it as 1075 / 1080. It is 1075 and if you get specific with them about it they will concure on that. I asked for the highest carbon content 5 foot bar I could get and it was 0.72%. It is 1075. With shipping I paid 40 some bucks for 1/4 inch X 2 inch X 5 foot. OH, it is a wonderful blade steel. I found that out.

Big yes on the tight 1095 nose. It seems the last TTT chart I saw on it was around 1/2 second. We aren't doing that by hand. I practice like piano players practice and I am at about 1 second. Any quicker and I'll end up slinging it into the wall :lol.

RL

Chuck Burrows
09-05-2004, 01:10 AM
Kyle first off I didn't mean to scare you away from 1095 - it is a great knife steel and you just have to have your quench close to your forge or furnace in Roger's case :cool: to hit the nose.

Kelly Cupples (509) 728-0057
Kelly had 1084 and should have 1080 in stock - he does have a $25.00 minimum but it's postage paid anywhere in the 48 states.
1084
1/8X 1"..........................................1.95
1X 1 1/4.........................................2.15

1080
3/16X 1.........................................1.90
3/16X 1 1/2....................................2.40
Kelly is also a great guy to deal with!

BTW - where are you at? there might be a maker in your area that could help out. Also if you're in a farm area: plow shares, harrow disks, etc are commonly made from 1080/1084.

rlinger
09-05-2004, 02:54 AM
Yeah, my problm was I didn't locate 1084 or even 1080 in the width I needed (2 inch). I settled on 1075 but it turned out just great for the type knife it was used for. Chuck, I have another to start ASAP and will use the 1075 I have in stock unless you might know of a source for 2 inch wide by 1/4 thick 1080(?). I remember now, that's another thing - I believe I was having trouble finding 1080 in 1/4 thick too. I appreciate any thoughts on that (2 X 1/4 inch).

RL

Chuck Burrows
09-05-2004, 08:34 AM
Admiral lists hot rolled 1084 - http://www.admiralsteel.com/products/200/hr1084.html

Seems like the home snow plow manufacturers use it in 1/2" x 6" - may be worth contacting one of them and see who they get it from.

Otherwise give Kelly a call and see if he might know?????

kyle juedes
09-05-2004, 12:36 PM
i live in oregon, about a half hour south of portland. I'm not so worried about slinging it into the wall because i have it locked in some vice grips. I am worried about slopping oil all over my moms carpet though :rolleyes:

Thanks again,
KJ

Chuck Burrows
09-05-2004, 12:58 PM
Kyle - Ray Richard lives in Gresham and uses 1080/1084. He usually posts in the Outpost, he's been quiet lately, but you might PM him and see if can help out.

Kelly is Eastern Washington, Yakima I think so he's not too far away. Wouldn't hurt to ask him if he'd sell a couple of knife size pieces.

Yep Mom's - and wives - do frown upon sloopy messes! 8o

Chris Daigle
09-05-2004, 01:13 PM
Kyle,

I've got some 1/8" 1080 stock I can cut up if you want to try a couple of pieces. Just let me know.

Chris

kyle juedes
09-05-2004, 01:24 PM
How much would it cost me. That would be AWESOME if you could get me some, just let me know the cost.

If you want you can email me at : k.juedes@verizon.net


Thanks,
KJ

Chuck Burrows
09-05-2004, 01:30 PM
Chris- Apparently your move went OK since you can find it! :101

Chris Daigle
09-05-2004, 02:02 PM
Kyle,

Don't worry about the cost. It's on me. People like Chuck from this forum have been very generous to me in the past in both materials as well as information. Just send your mailing iformation to c_daigle@sbcglobal.net

Chuck, we are still building the new house, THAT is the only reason I can find it! :rolleyes: :D I can't wait to get into my new shop!!! Dust collection system! Woohoo!

Chris

Chris Daigle
09-05-2004, 02:37 PM
And as to the short quench times, I'm not sure how other makers do it, but my method is fairly quick. It helps if you have a small setup like my own.

One of my quench "tanks" is a metal container with lid that is normally meant as a pasta container (OK, you all can call me a yuppie forger...go ahead :lol ). But it has a few really good features. One, it's light enough and has the lid so that you can transport it out of the way when not in use. You can also hang a thermometer off the side to make sure the oil is heated up.

Being able to place it right under the forge makes for a quick dunk. This only applies for a full quench, and the size of the container will only accomodate up to a 7" blade, but it's worked well for me in the past.

Chris

J.Arthur Loose
09-12-2004, 11:59 AM
When folks say that you have to quench in under 1 second it doesn't mean from the fire to the quench, it usually means from the time the blade hits the quench... unless you're *really slow* going from the fire into the quench. Take a blade out of the fire and watch for the shadows to start forming... that's how long you have to get it into the quench; probably a couple seconds, which is way better than .6!

Just wanted to put that out there since it confused me when I first started...

paul harm
09-13-2004, 03:10 PM
over on don foggs forums a well known " expert" on heat treating suggested not going quite so high before you quench . if the steel is 25 degrees less hot , that's 25 deg. less to take it down to miss the nose . he went on to say , most people try a higher temp to get a good hardness , when actually the oppisite is true . i'm with mr. loose on the time it takes - i don't believe you're loosing more than a couple of degrees going from the forge to the oil , it's still at austinite temps , it's how fast your quenchent will take it down . just my 2 cents worth . paul

SteveS
09-13-2004, 04:26 PM
Paul,

I might be way off here, but I've always believed just the opposite. The .6 seconds refers to how fast you have to get it from above critical to below the 'nose'.

The higher the temperature the more time you have. (Of course there are undesireable effects from too high, but I'm just refering to the martensite creation).

So, it isn't that you have less than a second to go from ANY temperature to below 500 degrees. It's how fast you get it from austentite temp to martensite temp.

Or am I out of wack here.

Steve

paul harm
09-13-2004, 10:44 PM
the way it was explained was ; lets say critical temp is 1500 , and you'te trying to get to your number , 500 - it's easier to do than if you were at 1525 , or 1550 because there's 25 or 50 less degrees to cool down . i probably didn't explain it very well - it was more of a discussion on people having trouble getting the steel hard , and they were heating the blade hotter , making it just that much harder to miss the nose of the curve . a lot of people use thier forge and a magnet , and let the temp rise just a bit above non- magnetic , when they may be better off not alowing it to rise above non-magnetic . it was just a sugestion for people having trouble , and it makes sense . paul

SteveS
09-14-2004, 12:34 AM
Paul, I don't even want to sound argumentitive so please don't mis-read me I'm trying to understand.

It seems to me that the issue is getting from (let's just use your numbers it's easier that way) 1525 to 500. If the blade is right at 1525 when it comes out of the 'oven' you don't have any time to hit the quench because if it takes a second to get to the quench you are already hitting the nose and air won't cool fast enough.

However if you are at 1600 (let's say) you have more time. Because the steel can drop to 1525 before you hit the quenchant. Then the quenchant can get you below the nose.

Or am I still confused (quite likely!)

Steve

paul harm
09-14-2004, 09:08 AM
do i don't think you're argumentitive - it's a good discussion . let's do this - is it quicker to cool something from 2000 to 500 or from 1500 to 500 ? i would have to think it would be easier and quicker to cool it from 1500 . the same applies from 1550 /1500 to 500 . you're gonna get it down to 500 quicker if you start from a lower temp . by the way , it was howard clark who suggested this idea . maybe mr. loose would give his thoughts again ? maybe i didn't interpret howards thread properly - but that's how i remember it . paul

paul harm
09-14-2004, 09:33 AM
after sitting here , thinking of the question from your side , i can see what you're saying . i guess what the question is - what is the temp drop from fire to quench ? if it's not dropping below austentite, then it's easier from a lower temp . if you are dropping below austentite, how much time was used ; that would be added to the total time . how would one measure the temp drop just before it hits the quench ? i've used files many times for knives with no problems , and just used a magnet , so i can't really say if going to a higher or lower temp is necessary . i was just stating what someone else said [ and i hope i quoted him right ] . i would think the carbon content from a file is at least as high as 1095 , and don't think it is possible to do it in .6 sec. how then does one explain them getting hard? maybe we have more time than the book says ? paul

SteveS
09-14-2004, 12:00 PM
Paul,

I think we're getting the questions refined enough to answer. First I want to clarify my understanding that steel is austentite above a certain temperature (depending on alloys). Say the As temp is 1475, then it's austentite at 1475 and 1500 and 1600. So, given that let me take a crack at asking the question:

When creating martensite and considering the time factor, how do you measure the time? Is it the time spent getting the steel from the temp in the forge to below the 'nose'? Or is it the time to get it from austentite to below the nose?

I think that's the question we're trying to get answered.

Steve

mete
09-14-2004, 04:11 PM
These kinds of threads are confusing ,vegetable oil, pasta containers ? Is this a cooking show ? .....Remember that the TTT diagrams are done with one specific chemistry under specific laboratory conditions. The transformation starts when you get below the transformation temperature ,at that point it takes about 1/2 second to start to transform to pearlite .That's not impossible especially with blades which are thin. After all it's done all the time . If you have problems look to your technique. Furnace temp - can you measure temps and control them accurately ? The better you can control temp and time [soak time ] the better off you are . Do you take out the blade and look at it and then check with a magnet ?Then you've lost too much time. [after magnet put it back in to make sure you're back to temp.]Do you have to walk to the quench ? then you've lost too much time. Water quench should work as should something like AAA since that is designed to bring the temp down quickly past the pearite region then slower through the martensite region...To answer Steve - when you go below the tranformation temp then the clock starts. Curie temp is 1414F [ magnetic temp] There is the often quoted Ac1 [on heating]but there is also Af1 [on cooling ,which is lower than the Ac1], and the specifics of chemistry etc . So don't get lost in all the theory ,refine you procedures and it should come out hard ! :D

paul harm
09-14-2004, 10:43 PM
mete - thank you - paul

SteveS
09-14-2004, 11:25 PM
when you go below the tranformation temp then the clock starts.

OK so raising the temperature in the forge actually helps give you more time to get into the quench. IOW, if I have a blade at 1500 and go to the quenchant, I have to get sooner than if the blade is at 1550.

Steve

paul harm
09-15-2004, 03:30 PM
try it and find out . let us know how it works out . paul

J.Arthur Loose
09-21-2004, 09:29 AM
OK so raising the temperature in the forge actually helps give you more time to get into the quench. IOW, if I have a blade at 1500 and go to the quenchant, I have to get sooner than if the blade is at 1550.

Steve

What I was trying to say earlier is that the temperature drop of a blade in the air, as it is removed from the fire, happens a little slower than a lot of people think; otherwise we wouldn't need to quench at all. You've got two or three seconds in most cases before a blade in the air gets below critical. You can also see the transformation itself by looking for the shadows... in other words, if the edge looks dark before you get to the quench you've taken too long. I actually practiced this for a while with a thermocouple in my forge, just heating a blade right to the austenitic & watching it cool. I learned that it is better to be smooth and get the blade into the oil accurately than it was to stress and try to go as quick as possible.

SteveS
09-21-2004, 11:48 AM
Thanks loads J.

I like the idea of watching for the shadows on the edge. I'm gonna practice that. I have been using the oven for the hardening process, because I couldn't get a consistent result from the forge. Funny, I've played with watching the shadows on the upswing .....


Steve