I was on one of the other forums and read the most incredible mis-representation of normalizing and annealing that I have ever read. And it was posted by well known and respected bladesmiths. It was so totally incorrect, that I did not feel posting a science-based reply would be at all helpful. It proves to me that the appeal of home-grown mythology is more powerful (or at least easier to understand) than good science. I am not a bladesmithand would never counsel anyone here on how to forge or grind a good blade. What I don't understand is why someone who has clearly not understood the most basic elements of metlallurgy would presume to counsel others with a barage of mis-information. Buy a book, educate yourselves. :rolleyes:

We are always ready and willing to learn. If you don't want to name names you could give us a wrong vrs. right low down here. It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. I don't think the guy would or should be offended if you offered your opinion. I have parroted info here that I have heard. If I say something wrong I would be grateful if someone stepped up and set me straight.

For sure. All any of us really know is what others have told us. Wether they were correct or not, no one will ever know. I was having the same discussion with my boss the other day. We're in the paint selling buisiness and were discussing some of the more difficult process in painting. We don't paint for a living, so all we have to go off of is what the pro painters tell us. Again, wether or not they were right, we don't know. But we still have to give out that same advice to our less experianced customers. I'd hate to know someone messed up their house because I told them how to do it incorrectly. And I'd really hate to mess up one of my blades because I was doing somthing someone told me to do WRONG!!!

I think we all appricate and respect the knowlage you can offer to us all QuenchCrack.

Thanks for all the info you have given us, and a big thanx for all the info you're going to give us.
Michael

Hey quenchcrack!
Can you suggest any good heat treating books.
Thanks.
Lucas

I recognize and appreciate how many people here want to learn about heat treating. This is particularly gratifying because you cannot really "SEE" the difference between a poorly heat treated blade and one properly heat treated. It is only after you have paid your money for a blade that you learn if it will perform. The fact that so many people here want to do it right is a credit to you all. I would just caution everyone to take with appropriate skepticism any advise you get from a person who does not have the credentials to warrant your trust. Any of the Master Bladesmiths should be worthy of your confidence and most of the Journeymen, too. There are a large number of forum members who are extremely capable knifemakers who can answer most questions about making a blade. But there are just danged few metallurgists who are also knifemakers and we are all glad to share the real science of heat treating our blades. Just ask. :101

I would just caution everyone to take with appropriate skepticism any advise you get from a person who does not have the credentials to warrant your trust. Any of the Master Bladesmiths should be worthy of your confidence and most of the Journeymen, too.

If we are to accept someone's "credentials", shouldn't we at least know who we're speaking to? I for one would definitely like to know who you are. Maybe some do, and I've missed something, but to me all you are is a nickname.

As for the ABS credential, it means someone can 'smith a knife and pass the tests and make some pretty pieces; it doesn't mean they know any metallurgy. Some do, some don't. Some, like Kevin C., have a lot of knowledge.

I am always anxious to extend my knowledge, so I read your posts to glean info. I must admit, though, that I really don't like disembodied nicknames. If you'd let us know, I'm sure it would be appreciated by many more than me.

Thank you for any consideration.

As for the ABS credential, it means someone can 'smith a knife and pass the tests and make some pretty pieces; it doesn't mean they know any metallurgy. Some do, some don't. Some, like Kevin C., have a lot of knowledge.

An ABS smith might not know the scientific words for it, but if they can pass the test then they can heat treat a blade properly and can advise on the procedure even if they don't know the names of the "ites" or what the steel is doing on a microscopic scale.

An ABS smith might not know the scientific words for it, but if they can pass the test then they can heat treat a blade properly and can advise on the procedure even if they don't know the names of the "ites" or what the steel is doing on a microscopic scale.
Agreed. If you can make a blade to pass those tests, you're doing something right,

Andrew, I'm not going to argue this point much, but I will say a couple things:

I have stood next to an ABS MS at a hammer-in, listened to him counsel someone, and had many of the onlookers shaking their heads when he left, asking "How'd he get his stamp? That was just plain wrong!" True story, believe it or not.

It has been stated on a forum when this was CKD that the purpose of the ABS JS testing was to see if a 'smith can specifically heat treat a blade to perform a specific set of functions. It was also stated that the blade would not necessarily make a good knife, as it has been made to specifications not necessarily desirable in a knife. It does not in any way guarantee they have a developed knowledge of the subject. To assume otherwise is naive. There are more than one JS candidate who had to HT different blades for months to learn how to pass that test just once.

I would say that, IF the ABS is trying to give the general impression that their candidates were accomplished heat treaters, that they be required to forge, HT, and test their blade ALL IN REAL TIME, before a competent MS. They should have more than one shot to decide if the blade is acceptable to them, and the opportunity to remake/he-HT, whatever. But, when they announce it's ready, they have one shot to pass that test with that blade, or else they go home, wait a year, and try again. Want to make it real interesting, make them periodically re-test live.

I'm not at all ABS bashing, it does many fine things, but I'm also not putting them on any pedastal that is not deserved.

I'm sure you're right in that not all individuals really meet the expectations of the ABS and just happened to get lucky with their test. There are exceptions to every rule, but I think the test is hard enough that most people would have to be fairly competent to pass. I'm not a member, so my opinion isn't biased and I'm not offended if you disagree since it doesn't apply to me personally anyway. Just seems that a test that hard would break most mistaken HT procedures, especially when you take the test a second time for the MS test. Getting lucky once, maybe... getting lucky twice is much more unlikely. Again, it could happen, I just think that the majority of the time it wouldn't.

I don't think periodic retesting is a bad idea really, not sure if the people who would be forced to retest would agree ;) . I also think a Rc hardness test might not be a bad idea, wouldn't prove anything by itself but combined with the rest it could show alot.

Andrew,

I should add that the ABS itself says that passing the test does not indicate any certification that a member-made knife will necesarily pass those tests, just that blade they passed the test with. Nor do they certify you will get a good knife. These are made by individuals not under constant scrutiny, and quality may vary.

The truth of the matter is that the test requires a blade that is essentially hardened on so little of the edge that it wouldn't last long as a knife. Many, if not most of the physical-test knives have perhaps 1/8-3/8" of hardened steel on a rather large blade of shallow-hardening steel, and every attempt is made to keep the rest as soft as possible. I would not want a knife made to those blade specs, it wouldn't last.

Once again, don't get me wrong: the ABS is a great teaching organization, they do establish some minimum level of competency, and they have done wonders promoting the forged blade. However, the members are not required to do more than pass those tests, both performance and inspection of work. They are not brought before a panel of judges and quizzed about their knowledge. They are in no way required to be masters at heat treating, able to HT any high carbon low alloy steel to a given set of specifications on demand. An ABS MS is no slouch, that is certain, but their TOTAL knowledge level about knifemaking varies significantly. That pertains even more to the JS smiths.

These are not bad things, but I do feel I am not mis-stating things here. One has to be realistic about what the organization and it's members actually are. There has been too much mythos spring up that if someone has those stamps, it somehow guarantees a certain DEEP knowledge. That is simply not the case.

There has been too much mythos spring up that if someone has those stamps, it somehow guarantees a certain DEEP knowledge. That is simply not the case. However, the members are not required to do more than pass those tests, both performance and inspection of work. They are not brought before a panel of judges and quizzed about their knowledge.

I don't disagree with this at all, that's why in my original post I mentioned something about how they might not know the names of the "ites" or what's going on at a microscopic level. While knowing that stuff can certainly help you tailor your HT since you know exactly what it's doing, you really don't need to know the details of WHY something works if you know the process and it does work.

Since there's the chopping, rope, and shaving test in addition to the breaking test, I don't think the knives made for the test would have as piddly of a hardened section as you think (though I could be wrong), it seems the blade would have to be pretty decient to do all the chopping and still retain a shaving edge. While I can guarentee not all blades were made this way, the majority of test knives I've read about were actually full hardened and the spine was drawn back, as opposed to an edge quench.

p.s. I hope you're taking this as a lively discussion as I am, and are not being offended. It can be too easy for me to offend sometimes in text since I tend to be blunt when speaking and use the tone of my voice to temper my words, which doesn't really work in text. :o

Since there's the chopping, rope, and shaving test in addition to the breaking test, I don't think the knives made for the test would have as piddly of a hardened section as you think (though I could be wrong), it seems the blade would have to be pretty decient to do all the chopping and still retain a shaving edge. While I can guarentee not all blades were made this way, the majority of test knives I've read about were actually full hardened and the spine was drawn back, as opposed to an edge quench.

p.s. I hope you're taking this as a lively discussion as I am, and are not being offended. It can be too easy for me to offend sometimes in text since I tend to be blunt when speaking and use the tone of my voice to temper my words, which doesn't really work in text. :o

Andrew, I have to say I completely disagree about how the majority of test blades are made. Described as you pose, there would be nothing but tempered martensite in a fully hardened and spine-drawn blade. That would not pass the bending very often. My contention is that nearly all the test blades would be a narrow section of tempered and "good edge holding" martensite at the edge with the bulk of the piece being pearlite. That does not mean that the narrow martensite band is not of exceptional quality; it would have to be to pass the testing. I am not arguing that point at all. However, I would say, then, grind off a half inch of edge, re-establish an edge, and re-test. That would provide a good answer to our question, here.

Another good test, if we are expecting an MS to be a master of steels, would be to give them, in a live test, several different quality steels with different properties, and give them two chances with each steel to get a good blade. The first try would allow them to define what type of steel thay have, and the second would allow them to produce an exceptional blade. They can re-HT the first as many times as necessary, but the second would be single attempt. Now, that would separate the masters from the journeymen, if we're really talking "masters". Honestly, I don't think that's what the ABS means with the title. There really can't be too many people like that around. (Yeah, I know, I'm a weenie!)

I would encourage you to pose this very question about the nature of the HT in test blades on Caffrey's forum and get an MS's response.

And, no, I'm not offended by anyone willing to engage in a reasonable dialogue. I am sure I am seen by many as offensive in type, and most likely verbally, even when I get the opportunity to temper my words with vocal nuance. :D I will also admit to not employing a lot of subtlety and being very direct, though I suppose that's obvious. ;)

Thanks for the dialogue, I enjoy it!

BTW, I do agree totally that not having a bunch of understanding in technical language precludes a good knowledge of the actual practice of HT. I was a lab chemist for 30 years. I met all sorts of PhD's with a whole bunch of technical words that couldn't do squat at the bench; I knew many who combined both. They were a joy to know, very impressive. Kevin Cashen reminds me of that latter type.

RE: The piddly hardened edge ...

I can answer that one for you. Yes the test blades as a general rule tend to have a very narrow section fully hardened.

However, there is a vast misunderstanding that the ABS preaches that this is the way a blade should be done. The only purpose for that part of the test is to prove that the applicant has enough understanding of and control over his/her chosen medium to create these multiple zones of hardness.

The reason I said "as a general rule" above is that some guys harden only the edge and have everything else very soft. Those types of blade will tend to bend in the shape of an "L", and will generally take a set in that shape, or only spring back a little bit.

Others (like myself) have a hard edge with nothing really dead soft except for maybe the top of the spine. Those types tend to bend more in the shape of a "C" and spring back up a pretty good ways when the pressure is released.

There are many ways to make a blade that will pass the test. I watched a guy take his test at the Moran Hammer-in in Maryland last year who had a 5160 blade that when the pressure was released, the blade went back straight. Even the seasoned Masters were gathering around him asking how he heat treated it. It was very impressive.

Anyway, the main thing to remember is that the "piddly" hardened edge is okay for the test, as are the others I mentioned. Also, remember that contrary to popular belief, the ABS does not say that all knives should be able to be bent 90 degrees.

Many smiths like myself and Kevin Cashen prefer a stiff blade that would break if you tried to bend it 90 degress (for our own personal use), but it takes a tremendous amount of force to do it.

Thank you, Terry. I know it must sound like I'm ABS bashing, but I'm not. I try and say that in every post. I also know that I can't come close to saying everything that's in my head, so sometimes I might seem inaccurate. I do not intend this unfortunate consequence of forum posting.

I honestly feel, though, that there are misunderstandings that have sprung up about an ABS member's blades, and feel that the truth is less limiting than mythos. I hope folks can forgive my inadequacies in conveying my thoughts.

So, did you find out the "secret" to the 5160 blade that can be shared eith us?

Hmm, maybe less then I thought use the full harden, but then again, those are just the ones I've read about and I certainly haven't read about every JS/MS test knife ever made, just a few of them. I don't recall where I read most of them but I can give one example right now. In Wayne Goddard's "$50 Knife Shop", on page 83 he specifically says...

I used a blade that was fully hardened and then tempered with a soft back draw to pass my ABS Journeyman Smith requirements.

So even if less testing smiths then I first suspected use that method, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and won't work.

Oh, no-no Mike. I didn't think you were bashing the ABS. You and I seem to be apologizing to each other a lot. We need to quit doing that. :D You are tops on my list bubba.

Regarding the amazing 5160 blade at Maryland, his process description was right in alignment with what the rest of us know and do -- nothing magic. It was just one of those things that makes you sit back and say "h-m-m-m...".

Sometimes stuff just happens I guess. There are still some things that baffle even the scientists. :lol

Hmm, maybe less then I thought use the full harden, but then again, those are just the ones I've read about and I certainly haven't read about every JS/MS test knife ever made, just a few of them. I don't recall where I read most of them but I can give one example right now. In Wayne Goddard's "$50 Knife Shop", on page 83 he specifically says...



So even if less testing smiths then I first suspected use that method, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and won't work.
Andrew,
That's what I'm saying. There are numerous ways to do the blades where they will pass the test. Fully hardening and drawing back the spine is one way. Using a torch to heat only the edge, then quench is another way. Heating the entire blade and doing an edge quench is another way. Clay treating is another way. The list goes on and on.

When Wayne drew back the spine with a torch, it was probably not just for 1/4" or so. He more than likely put the edge in some water, then slowly and methodically drew the spine back until he was 2/3 of the way to the edge or better. It would still be a narrow section that was really hard, with decreasing hardness as it traveled up the spine.

You and I are not in disagreement.

Actually, I didn't think anyone did the torch-tempered spine anymore. That was how Zowada trained me, but that was like '87. When I started the forum-thing a few years back, everyone seemed to pooh-pooh that as passe technique. Said that it couldn't really temper the spine properly though I knew a lot of knives had been made that way. I was sincerely of the understanding that most all did the narrow-edge quench for their test blade. And I agree, I prefer a bit harder blade that doesn't bend so easily, and that the narrow edge is usually reserved only for the test for many, though not all.

Thanks for the clarifications, Terry! I try and learn as I'm presented with new information, I really do! LOL

Nonetheless, when I feel I've perhaps been wrong, I always feel an apology's in order. Like I said on that BF thread, when I intend to insult I have no subtlety whatsoever! Thanks for your kind understanding!

Ok, fair question. My real name is Bob Nichols. Quenchcrack is the name I use on www.keenjunk.com and www.anvilfire.com. I am one of the Gurus on Anvilfire. I am a Registered Professional Engineer, I have a Professional Masters Degree in Metallurgical Engineering. I taught Materials Engineering for 2 years at the University of Texas-Permian Basin. I have been heat treating steel since 1970, making knives by stock removal since 1980 and by forging since 2000. I am ONLY a hobby smith and do not consider myself a bladesmith worthy of inclusion among the artists on this site. I will not counsel anyone on how to make a knife. I do know heat treating but I naturally focus on what gives the best microstructure and best abrasion resistance. I guess I am old fashioned in that I can see no good reason to bend a blade 90 degrees to see if it is "worthy". I would not do that in real life, and I don't give a hoot what any Knife Society says. I would expect a knife to hold a fine edge through at least one deer carcass and two would be better. I hate stainless steel; prefer D2 or 1095; I do not hollow grind, only flat grind; tend to make sturdy working knives, not collectibles. I saw a lot of questions not getting answered fully and correctly on this site and just wanted to offer to help people understand what I have spent half of my life learning and doing. I am also an avid woodcarver and started smithing by making my own carving set. Thats who I am. Sort of. :cool:

Hmm, seems like we might have all found our common ground, I don't see anything left to debate :D :confused:.

p.s. Actually, I didn't think anyone did the torch-tempered spine anymore. That was how Zowada trained me, but that was like '87. When I started the forum-thing a few years back, everyone seemed to pooh-pooh that as passe technique. Said that it couldn't really temper the spine properly though I knew a lot of knives had been made that way.

I like to draw the spine with a torch, though I'll give two full toaster-oven style temper at a lower temp first to make sure all the austinite is converted and the stresses relieved

Thank you, Bob Nichols! I am more than pleased to make your acquaintance, and truly appreciate your detailed response. Your bona fides are thus obvious to all, as was your knowledge in prior posts. I think I speak for many in welcoming you here and welcoming your input.

I am a scientist at heart, and enjoy learning about, understanding, and demystifying bladesteel heat treating. I have quite a variety of steel texts, and am slowly, very slowly trying to work my way through Bain's "Alloying Elements in Steel". Jeesh, what a hard read for someone without the particular vocabulary of steel metallurgy.

Once, again, thank you! I look forward to reading what you are willing to teach.

I've enjoyed and learned from your posts on Keenjunk, Bob, and it's good to see you here. You'll fit right in! :D - Jim

Thanks for the introduction Bob. Yes, we're glad to have you here. Regarding the name thing, there are no rules regarding usernames and such around here. Fitzo (Mike Fitzgerald) wasn't really jumping your case about that.

A lot of us have been here since the beginning of what used to be the CKD forums. Through the years, we've all become quite close, and just like to know who we're talking to. That's all it was.

One thing I'd like to clear up (again) is:

...I guess I am old fashioned in that I can see no good reason to bend a blade 90 degrees to see if it is "worthy". I would not do that in real life, and I don't give a hoot what any Knife Society says...

The ABS does not preach that all knives should be able to bend 90 degrees. That part of the test is just to insure that the applicant "can" control his chosen medium.

#######

Andrew,
Do you and I share common ground now? I wasn't sure if it was you and I, or you and Fitzo, or all of us combined in your last post.

Do you and I share common ground now? I wasn't sure if it was you and I, or you and Fitzo, or all of us combined in your last post.

Well I had meant Fitzo, because you had pretty much taken the middle ground in the discussion, so you were already on common ground with both of us. You agreed with some of my points and with some of his so you weren't really on UNcommon ground with anyone to begin with. So basically all three of us though you were already there.

I think there was a request earlier for book suggestion. I would enjoy reading any suggested book people feel is useful. My knowledge is fairly limited to using ovens at the real job and books on tool steels. Although I need to learn more about forging, my current focus is to learn about treating some of the newer metals in ovens.

Any suggestions for me?

I'm glad for this thread. I've learned, and I like that. I don't like giving out misinformation, the original topic of this thread, and hope I am enough of a person to always admit when I'm not right. I've proven to myself once again that it's easy for me to be wrong! There's gotta be a lesson in that somewhere for me, if I'll only learn. :o

And, Bob, hope I wasn't too offensive. Sorry. This new forum is very important to us, and having people on board who can lead and guide us is very welcome.

Thanks, folks!

welcome to ckdf ..er, ah.. knf, bob. good stuff.

Here's a tutorial by quenchcrack on metallurgy. I copied it out and took it with me to the coast over the weekend. Enjoyed reading through it. Will now go back through it with a highlighter and make a few notes. This is a great resource. http://www.iforgeiron.com/Blueprints/BP0078Metallurgy%20of%20HT/BP0078%20Metallurgy%20of%20HT%20w-pix.htm (http://)

Thanks, Robert, it's both bookmarked and printing right now!

Welcome back, glad you had a nice trip!

My thanks to you all for a gracious welcome. Fitzo, you were not the person I started my rant about. I think all of us can learn from your posts, too. Regarding the ABS qualifications, well, there you are! Like I said, I have no business telling anyone here how to make a knife. I have 3 bookcases full of books at work but many of them are older than I am! They were gifts from a man I worked for on the East Coast who was quite a scholar. He served in the 101st Airborn and had a Masters Degree in Physics and an MBA but read a lot of metallurgy and welding books. There are not a lot of useful books on metallurgy that are written for the non-metallurgist. That is probably why there are so many folks posting tutorials on metallurgy on the web. If you are SERIOUS about learning the metallurgy of heat treating, the best book I have found on THEORY is "Steel and Its Heat Treatment" by George Krauss from ASM. There is another one whose name and author I have forgotten but is a very practical book (for a metallurgist). I will post the name tomorrow from work. :D

I moved as fast as I can and then came back disappointed that of the fifteen "steel" books on my shelf, that isn't one of them. Ah, well, off to amazon/used soon!

I think I read the thread you were commenting on originally, Bob, and understood that part completely. I had recently read one sorta left me shaking my head, too. I am sorry if I left the impression I thought you were speaking of me. It was a different mouth, different foot I was using!

It seems like the imp was alive in me when I posted my reply this morning when I wanted to know who you were. At 53 I'm still trying to learrn to behave like a real grownup. Something tells me I'll never get there. :(

My sadness at myself came from the fact I seem to have gotten some things wrong about ABS test blades. Terry is a very kindhearted man, though, and didn't beat me up in my ignorance. I appreciate having the correct information about things.

You can betcher butt, though, Bob, that there are a bunch around here who will dote on your comments and teaching. Thank you! We look forward to learning.

My sadness at myself came from the fact I seem to have gotten some things wrong about ABS test blades. Terry is a very kindhearted man, though, and didn't beat me up in my ignorance. I appreciate having the correct information about things.

Yup, I was wrong on some of the stuff I thought I knew about them too. We both learned something today, always a good thing. :101

On a side note, nice to see you here Quenchcrack, you might remember me from the Anvilfire guru board. I'm used to seeing you post good info there, I'm sure alot of people will benifit from having you here.

Howdy, Bob/QC!

I recognized you from the smithing boards too. What do you think of "Tool Steel Simplified" by Palmer and Luerssen, published by Carpenter Steel? I have the third edition, 1968 printing, and I think it's one of the best there is at BASIC explanation of what it is we try to do to steel. Until I looked at it just now I had not realized it was first printed in 1938, but I calls 'em like I see's 'em.

Fitzo and I spend so much time clarifying ourselves and worrying about offending someone, I think we need to each add a line to our signatures like this:

Fitzo's:
mike fitzgerald: I apologize

Mine:
http://www.primosknives.com/images/banner1.jpg
I'm sorry

:D

#########

I just bookmarked the link to Bob Nichols' article as well. Thanks for the link.

has the ABS or any other organization given much thought to doing more in depth testing? not to put down the current testing, but i was thinking something more scientific...using machines designed for testing edge retention, rockwell testing, machines to monitor the depth of cut vs force exerted, etc. seems to me this would give more accurate results and less dependent on human factors.

is this needed to insure the making of a good blade? nope...but to me it would be neat to see accurate numeric results. might also help to dispel myths

-Jason Aube

welcome to the forum quenchcrack :)

Fitzo and I spend so much time clarifying ourselves and worrying about offending someone, I think we need to each add a line to our signatures like this:

Fitzo's:
mike fitzgerald: I apologize


Certainly seems like that would be appropriate, doesn't it, Terry? But, I'll bet you feel like me that it's better to apologize when it may not be totally necessary than miss one when it is.

Thanks for the kindness. I mean that.

The one I tried to think of last night was "Principles of the Heat Treatment of Plain Carbon and Low Alloy Steels" By Charlie R. Brooks, ASM press. Also, a good primer on heat treating is an old one: "Principles of Heat Treatment" by Grossman and Bain. These two authors are legends among metallurgists, Bain having the structure Bainite named after him. Grossman and Bains book is long out of print; the last printing was in 1972 so look for a used copy. Krauss's book was based on this book. Bethlehem published a book called "The Tool Steel Troubleshooter" that is an excellent resource when things don't go right with tool steels. Again, out of print. Timkin has a free book on their website that has a lot of data in it but not much text. It is in pdf format. I will post more as I think of them.

Thank you :)
I have been having a tuff time finding any decent books,so I really appreciate the info.
Lucas

AwP, yes I remember the nickname. Good to hear from you again.

Alan, I do not have the book on tool steels you mentioned. I know that George Krauss has written a new book on Tool Steels and I would expect it to be top notch. George was a Professor Emeritus at my Alma Mater (Colorado School of Mines) and is a past President of the American Society for Metals and Materials. A great guy, too. They called him Mr. Martensite! :D

AUBE, there is a branch of science/engineering called tribology and it deals with wear and wear control. The "Tribologists" have developed standardized tests for abrasion resistance of metals under controlled conditions. It might be an interesting test for a blade to run it on an abrasion system and measure the weight loss after a specified time. Of course, the blade might not be saleable after the test. However, since abrasion resistance is more than just hardness, semi-finished blades of various material and heat treatments could answer scientifically some questions about the best blade/heat treat combinations.

The posts seem to pile up quickly on this thread.
I went to half.com in search of books on the cheap. Strange thing is good books are never cheap. I only found Steels: Heat Treatment and Processing Principles by George Krauss, it was $109 so I will have to put it on the wish list.
http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=714936&domain_id=1856&meta_id=1

I printed the link, I am only halfway through it but it is a good read. Thanks for posting the link and Mr. Nichols thanks for writing

I am pleased to be of some use here but you are all making me feel old! Mr. Nichols is my father's name, please call me Bob or Quenchcrack or QC.....or..............

I be almost 53, Bob. The other day, when I wanted to know who you were, I must say it was mostly because calling you "crack" conjured too many images I didn't want to see! :D
There are lots of us over-the-hill gang here! We sorta have a loose, undefined "old farts" club. Periodically you'll see a post using "OFx". Now you'll know what that means.

I look at gray hair as a badge of honor. I made it this far and that's pretty surprising!

Hope you're having a good one!

Hey! I be 55, that's not fair that Fitzo's younger than I am! (well, physically, anyway, I got him beat mentally :o)

Hey! I be 55, that's not fair that Fitzo's younger than I am! (well, physically, anyway, I got him beat mentally :o)

:p :p :p ..................... :)


I must be getting feebleminded if all I can do in response is funny little faces! ;)

Fitzo, over the hill gang here! speak for your self, you need to get to the top first I am 68 and not there yet. OF#2

Jeesh, Gib, what was it like before the rocks got ground down into dirt??? :eek:

I wish I had your energy, and I admire your work ethic. My problem is not so much age as being broken down, but, I am better than I was two years ago, and hope to get back to where I can really work again. Really hoping I can be happily walking over that hill rather than dragging myself. I'd like to be able to honestly call myself a fulltime knifemaker, as this head still has lots of ideas.

Every day I wake up on the right side of the grass is a Blessing!

"I taught Materials Engineering for 2 years at the University of Texas-Permian Basin. "

Bob,
I wish someone with your ability to communicate had been teaching here at A&M when I took material science grad classes! Unfortunately it was usually a professor who didn't want to take time out from research to teach doing the lectures and grad students who scarcely knew more than us(the only requirement seemed to be that they had taken the class the semester prior) *teaching* the practical lab sections! I enjoyed the classes and learned quite a bit...but I think they could have been much, much better. I enjoy reading yours, Kevin's and several others on various forums posts about metallurgy and find them quite useful. Thanks!

Mike, There was a time few years ago when I couldn't do a lot but with the help of a good Dr. and a lot of hard work I am 2 or 3 times better. I was so bad I went and sold all my Cowboy Guns, last year I bought another set and now shoot in CAS matches every month. Talk about fun beyond belief. Gib

That is inspirational, Gib, thanks!

My biggest problem seems to be to motivate myself anymore. I developed a mindset of inability when I was at my worst. When I do work, I tend to overdo it and "hurt" myself, sending me back into the lassitude.

I need to re-discover the joy and passion in knifemaking (or for that matter, anything) that I once had so that I do what I can, every day, instead of once in awhile. Dealing with illness mentally is as difficult at times as the physical limitations.

Mike, I found that it was a matter of want to, anyway I get bord with nothing to do and my hands need to create. Gib

You're absolutely right, Gib. It is something I can only do for myself. Thanks for the honest reminder!

Don, Thanks, I appreciate the encouragement. I wish I could make knives like the rest of you folk, too!

My first class at UTPB had mostly juniors, mostly from Iran (I am dating myself now) and none had taken calculus, chemistry, or strength of materials. I ended up having to teach a vocabulary course since none of them could actually do the engineering! :rolleyes:

Just my 2 cents, but I think the cutting competition in the abs has a few people rethinking how they heat treat blades. I got to see my first one at the hammer in in old washington a while back and heard a few smith's talking about changing a few things from what they learned from the cutting competition. I was taught to fully harden the blade and draw it back on the spine back in the late 80's early 90's. And that is exactly how Mr. Connor taught it at my basic bladesmithing course in 2002. We had one fellow from wisconsin with a bowie we couldn't bend. There were three of us with a cheater pipe trying to bend it. Mr. Connor stopped us because we were either going to break the vise or when the knife did finally break someone was going to get hurt. Quite a few people were impressed with that blade. I prefer to fully harden them because you can draw back the spine to the stiffness best suited for the intended purpose of the knife. From either a sharpened pry bar to springy fillet knife. It's up to you.

Jimmy, I am with you. I think a fully hardened blade is superior for these reasons: the blade has less tendency to warp and crack in the quench, the martensitic spine, even if it is drawn down to an Rc 22 is tougher than a ferrite/pearlite structure you get when you do not fully quench the whole blade, quenching only the edge and leaving the spine hot slows the heat transfer at the edge and lowers the as-quenched hardness, and two microstructures in one blade can create a galvanic cell and cause corrosion (a small hazard if you take care of your tools).

A friend of mine has been picking my brain for a way to get martensite on the edge and bainite on the spine. To hit the bainite curve, you need to quench to about 1100F,stop the quench on the spine and slow cool it while continuing the quench of the edge. This probably means quenching the entire blade to 1100F, then pulling the top of the blade out of the quench while leaving the edge in all the way down to ambient. Low carbon bainite is incredibly tough but I am not sure if it has an advantage over martensite in a high carbon steel. Has anyone tried this?

Howard Clark acheives this in some of his L6 swords, bainite spine and tempered martensite edge. If I understood an email awhile back, it is a two-step process. That's all I know.

Interesting about the galvanic difference in the two microstructures. Dissimilar metals I was well aware of, but not this.

What an excellent thread. Thanks, Bob and everyone!

I read somewhere not long ago of a guy that quenches the entire blade for "X" length of time, then pulls it out of the oil, and if it's still smoking, in it goes again. The out again, and if it's not smoking, I think that only the edge goes back in until the oil temp is reached. His procedure may not have a thing to do with the hard edge/soft spine discussion, just something I remembered. (At my age, if I remember anything at all, you guys are going to hear about it!)

Hmmm....starting to get personal here.....hard edge, soft spine.................

I wonder how much of the "mystery techniques" are founded in just not knowing a darned thing about what is going on at a microstructural level. Yep, experimentation is a very important thing but I get the feeling that a lot this experimenting is just floundering around. Now I would be the first to agree that a lot of metallurgy started out this way. However, we have learned a lot since the age of iron and we can certainly shave a few years off of someones learning curve if they are willing to ask a few questions, eh?

I have been known to quench 5160 in water by succesive quick plunges into a slack tub trying to get a slower quench rate than water but faster than oil. It works rather more frequently than seldom but not as often as occasionally.

I was asked by a young neighbor boy if I could repair his diving knife. He said he bent the blade on a coconut. I said "sure, bring it over." It was a very inexpensive diving knife and on the blade, it said 304 SS. 304!! 304 has a nominal carbon of .05%! He could have bent the blade slicing bananas! I hammered it back into line and polished it up for him. I did not tell him the knife was a POS. He was about 12 and very pleased to get the knife fixed.

I've heard of people putting there quenching oil over brine so there is a zone of differential heat absorption to create different effects. I've never tried this or seen anyone do it. Is this another myth?

Not to stray to far off the topic but we had a Tiawanese student in my damascus and handles and guards class that came to the abs school because he couldn't get a real answer in his home country. He asked a local bladesmith how he got the colors in the steel from heat treating the knife. He was told that the sword in question got it's blue color because it was placed in a rainbow at a waterfall and allowed to absorb the color over 3 years. We had a pretty good laugh at that one.

There is a crowd that hangs out in oft-moving places that is quite adept and knowledgeable in HT metallurgy and beyond to creating their own steel. At one time they hung out more at Sword Forums, then later at Fogg's forum. I don't know where they hang nowadays. Kevin knows, I'll bet; he's one of "THEM" ! I feel confident the Clark swords are the result of deep understanding of heat treat metallurgy.

I am assuming you are all refering to what was once called "color case hardening". This is a process that was commonly used on Colt pistol frames. It is done by bubbling air through the oil quenchant. It must be precisely controlled to get a pleasing coloration. I believe an old edition of Machinery's Handbook describes the process. :D

Color Case Hardening How-To:
"To case harden a part (the process is also known as pack hardening) the finished low carbon steel part is placed in a sealed container, packed with a high carbon compound. In the old days this was simply animal hide or bone. The container filled with parts and carbon bearing material was brought to a red heat and held at that temperature for a time determined by the size of the part. The time might be from a half hour up to several hours. As the bone or hide became carbon in the container, and a carbon rich gas formed, some of the carbon would infuse into the surface of the steel. Over time this would penetrate several thousandths of an inch, producing a high carbon surface on the low carbon steel part. At the proper time the container is removed from the furnace and the contents dumped into a quenching bath, usually water with perhaps a surface coat of oil to lessen the shock of the quench. The high carbon surface skin becomes glass hard, but the low carbon body of the piece remains soft and very ductile and able to resist shock. Properly done it made a simple and very durable system for treating metal action parts.
Colors are produced when the steel surface is cooled unevenly, capturing the natural blues, oranges and yellows of cooling steel. Several methods are employed to do this. Stevens moved the parts into the quench in a jerky fashion, producing a barred effect of color. Perazzi did the same. In the London gun trade the quench bath, usually a barrel with soft water and a skim of oil, was agitated by stirring, or with bubbles of air, producing a mottled effect on the steel. "

"Color case hardening is done much the same way except that generally only leather and bone are used as the carbon source. I don't know why this works better than charcoal, but it does. You get more brilliant colors with them. The other thing you do is modify the quenching bath. You need a source of bubbles. LOTS of bubbles to really rile up the quench bath. Adding a bit of potassium nitrate to the water increases the brilliance of the colors as well, but isn't a requirement. You have to watch the temperature more closely with color case hardening or the colors won't come out well. Don't go over 1350 F. "
A restored Colt SAA with CH frame and charcoal blue barrel and grip frame by Turnbull Restorations
http://turnbullrestoration.com/images/restorations_pgimages/coltafter2_hi.jpg

Yeah, what Chuck said. Beautiful piece.

Now you have me wondering. If the source of the carbon is critical to the coloration, simply applying this method to a high carbon blade may not give the same results. Ok, so how do you get the rainbow on the edge? Are these actually temper colors?

Ok, so how do you get the rainbow on the edge? Are these actually temper colors?
Apparently yes - Tai Goo who has done the most experimentation with rainbow qenches has always agitated it when going into the quench and when you note that agitation is also critical to getting the colors when color case hardening then I believe that is what at least in part gives the colors when rainbow quenching or at least plays apart. One should also note that "good" hamons are dependent on the type of steel used (10xx steels give the most dramatic hamons) so that also probably has a bearing on the rainbow quench.

Colors are produced when the steel surface is cooled unevenly, capturing the natural blues, oranges and yellows of cooling steel.

Stevens moved the parts into the quench in a jerky fashion, producing a barred effect of color. This one sounds real familiar because it was during Tai's first "in and out" quenching method that he started noticing the colors. Oxygen apparently may also play a aprt in the colors but they are not just surface oxides. I have one of Tai's rainbow quenched blades on hand and the colors are definitely "in" the steel and not just a surface condition.

Chuck, the pistol looks nice. You mentioned that you have one of Tai's knives with the rainbow quench. I would enjoy seeing it if you have time to snap some photos. Everything he does seems to leave me in awe.

Howdy Gary-
Heres the link to Tai's post re: the knife I have on hand (it's not mine :mad: - I'm to make a display box for it)

OOPS! forgot the link - http://knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17371&highlight=hemp
http://a1.cpimg.com/image/BB/ED/25013691-72e7-01230258-.jpg

There is a crowd that hangs out in oft-moving places that is quite adept and knowledgeable in HT metallurgy and beyond to creating their own steel. At one time they hung out more at Sword Forums, then later at Fogg's forum. I don't know where they hang nowadays. Kevin knows, I'll bet; he's one of "THEM" ! I feel confident the Clark swords are the result of deep understanding of heat treat metallurgy.

8o SHHHHH! The underground movement that you speak of is very guarded with their arcane secrets. I could tell you where the secret meeting place could be next for the League of Metallurgical Bladesmiths, but I would not live long enough to make it to that meeting :eek: In fact that is all hypothetical since I know nothing of any such group! I know nothing I tell you! I swear on my pocket protector and my type K thermocouplers! 8o

hehe.... ;)

Chuck, thanks for the pic. I missed this one during my time lurking.

Guys, I believe we may have taken off on the wrong tangent with jummy's original question. Or at least, the first thing that popped into MY head was floating oil on water for a duplex quench bath to gain something of the effect of both an oil quench and a water or brine quench. Tthe idea is that as you pass the hot blade through the layer of oil it is cooled enought to allow it be safely quenched in the more severe quenchant in the second layer. You could also do an edge quench type hardening with brine for the edge layer, and heavy oil for the spine. If you did it just right, you might get a nice differential hardening. Anyway, this oil on water thing is common in the common mechanics shop manuals of 75 years ago.

I don't know much about the heat treating, or even heat treatability of lead, but the family of a friend of mine is in the ammo making buisiness. And my buddy has talked about setting up his own little buisiness of making lead shot. For shotguns. This thread reminded me about him trying to explain there quench process of the molten lead. (note this was before i was into smithing of any kind.) They use the exact process being discussed here. A level of oil over the water. He mentioned it was for that exact reason. Cooling the lead to a degree where the water doesn't shock the lead.

I'm curious as to if anyone has done this yet, and how well it worked?

Also i have a small side question. How much would the weigh of the oil 5w30, 40w, etc have an affect on the quench? Would a heavier oil quench faster or slower? Or would they be the same? I've been using a quenchant of 50% ATF and 50% oil. Mixed oils though, a little of every weight probably. And I feel my quench has been to slow. I have about 10 gallons of quenchant, but even after a 30 second quench, it will still sizzle pretty heavy in water. just came to me that its possible i'm over heating the metal, but i'm still curious on what oil weight is most common.

Also i have a small side question. How much would the weigh of the oil 5w30, 40w, etc have an affect on the quench? Would a heavier oil quench faster or slower? Or would they be the same? I've been using a quenchant of 50% ATF and 50% oil. Mixed oils though, a little of every weight probably. And I feel my quench has been to slow. I have about 10 gallons of quenchant, but even after a 30 second quench, it will still sizzle pretty heavy in water. just came to me that its possible i'm over heating the metal, but i'm still curious on what oil weight is most common.

I've wondered exactly what difference oil weight makes too. I also use 50% ATF and 50% oil, both are not used and the oil is 5w20 semi-synthetic. I choose the oil on the assumption (hopefully it's right) that thinner oil quenches faster, and I took the semi-synthetic since I thought it might help raise the flash point.

And I feel my quench has been to slow. I have about 10 gallons of quenchant, but even after a 30 second quench, it will still sizzle pretty heavy in water.

The boiling point of water is way lower then the 400ish F needed to quench to for hardening, so it'll still make the water sizzle even when quenched enough for good hardness. As long as the file skates, it's good.

Kevin How about a league of metalsmiths forum where only an approved list of people get to post and answer? The rest of us could only look and learn! I used to look in on swordforum when you and Howard Clark and Papa Meier used to post, then it got invaded by a bunch of nincompoops who clearly werent working blade smiths as the intro requested. The magazines are sometimes no better, with pixie dust theories being advanced with a heavy dose of self promotion, it is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff, and find real world workable info beyond the basics. Ironbasher

Kevin How about a league of metalsmiths forum where only an approved list of people get to post and answer? The rest of us could only look and learn! I used to look in on swordforum when you and Howard Clark and Papa Meier used to post, then it got invaded by a bunch of nincompoops who clearly werent working blade smiths as the intro requested. The magazines are sometimes no better, with pixie dust theories being advanced with a heavy dose of self promotion, it is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff, and find real world workable info beyond the basics.

I'm not sure that would work all that great... While I agree that some of the nincompoops should have been asking their questions in the beginer forum there, when no nincompoops at all were posting in there it was awfully quiet. When the only people allowed to post have most of the answers, there aren't any nincompoops to ask a question to get them going.

Andrew,you are probably right about it being too limiting the way I said it.I didnt mean earnest people should be excluded, but I remember seeing posts asking questions like"how do I anoint a ritual sacrifice dagger" , or""how do I make a sword out of aluminum so that it is just as sharp and durable as steel only lighter" Clearly the posters had had one too many drums of coffee or left dungeons and dragons just long enough for food and pee breaks: thats the kind of things I hate to see clogging up a forum. Maybe this will be the forum for the "league"? Just my own earnest nincompoop opinion though. Ironbasher :o

Andrew,you are probably right about it being too limiting the way I said it.I didnt mean earnest people should be excluded, but I remember seeing posts asking questions like"how do I anoint a ritual sacrifice dagger" , or""how do I make a sword out of aluminum so that it is just as sharp and durable as steel only lighter" Clearly the posters had had one too many drums of coffee or left dungeons and dragons just long enough for food and pee breaks: thats the kind of things I hate to see clogging up a forum. Maybe this will be the forum for the "league"? Just my own earnest nincompoop opinion though. Ironbasher :o


It cannot be denied that the "Cafe" has been degenerating for some time. The solution is not simple. If it is just advanced makers or knowledgeable people they really have little to talk about, without boring or insulting each others intelligence. Usually the only thing you have left are controversial topics that get them to arguing, while this can be really fascinating for those lurking, it is by no means fun for the smiths. The problem is that if you really are immersed in this stuff everyday, when you get away from it you are on a break. Hang out with metal head/slide rule bladesmiths sometimes after an event like a show or hammer-in, you will find us talking about cars, politics or the sad state of the magazines, but you will rarely find us getting deep into metallurgy. We live that stuff the other 6 days of the week.

Now for the other side of the coin. When you allow all of the interesting questions, from the curious public, that really spur hot topics on, it is not the stupid Dungeons and Dragons posts that are the problem (we simply ignore them) it is the issue of aswering the SAME simple questions over and over and over again. Your experienced smiths simply get burned out. I held in there and tried to keep things alive but found myself getting too short and snippy when asked the same stinking question I just answered two posts up, but the asker was too eager to read more before posting or was too lazy to use the "search" function.

The only real problematic input that you get form the new guys is when they have taken all the hyped-up garbage in print today as gospel and decide to take the smtihs to task for contradicting their idols, or the guys who just got their hands on a rivet forge and become an instant "common mans expert", there to take the arrogant scientific know-it-alls to task for not embracing why re-bar and old mystery steel is not the finest of blade materials. We really have better things to do with our time.

All that being said, Adrian has been talking to me for some time about a possible solution to this, and I continue to hold out hope that a solution will be found, the internet is very cyclical and all forums seem to have their heyday and then eventually fade.

"Your experienced smiths simply get burned out. I held in there and tried to keep things alive but found myself getting too short and snippy when asked the same stinking question I just answered two posts up, but the asker was too eager to read more before posting or was too lazy to use the "search" function. "

You are so right Kevin, no one either wants to do a little research using the "search" button or they are too lazy to fully read ALL the posts in a thread.

"All that being said, Adrian has been talking to me for some time about a possible solution to this, and I continue to hold out hope that a solution will be found, the internet is very cyclical and all forums seem to have their heyday and then eventually fade."

I believe Adrian has tried to fix this on an experimental basis in the Japanese Style Swordmakers Cafe by restricting who can post. The result is a forum for professionals only that "echos" with emptiness because it has no input from varying levels of expertice.

I truly miss the Bladesmith Cafe of yesteryear, there was so much good information going on there it was truly unbelievable. I learned so much there and tried to limit any posts I made to things I was truly confused about after doing some basic research or to things I thought were truly pertinant to the thread in question. It shouldn't take someone long to figure out that if you are asking some of the best names in the business questions like "What kind of steel should I use to make a knife?" then you haven't done much footwork to earn their attention. One of the saddest things though about Swordforums is that the old database wasn't saved (that I know of) as an active searchable archive!