Gentlemen,

I just finished grinding my first 6 blades using O-1 tool steel and just got them back from being heat treated by Lee Oates. I mainly used the O-1 because of the price and as a beginner, it was important to me that I make my mistakes on some less expensive steel. In reading many of the posts in this forum, it seems tha O-1 is a popular steel, one that is highly regarded. There also seems to be some discussion as to its' apparent lack of rust prohibiting compounds. Could I be so bold as to ask some of you O-1 users a couple questions?

How quickly will O-1 rust?
Are there any special instructions that you give your clients who recieve one of your O-1 steel knives, as far as rust prevention is concerned?
Is the type of final surface treatment critical to the overall performance when it applies to rust? Polished over bead blasted or hand sanded?

Thanks for your guidance in this area,
-Mr Mike

Mike,as far as rust it depends on the use and care.Knives made of 01 are tough and durable .I tell everone that buys a carbon steel knife to keep it clean and whip down with wd-40 or better .
Carbon steel benifits from a high polish or an etched.And if Lee heattreated them they are done right.:D

If Lee's done the heat treat, he's done it right. Like Clay says, keep it clean. But you can always etch with FC to add a little durabilty (to the finish) to the blade. I wouldn't suggest sand or bead blasting carbon steels. You're just asking for rust to settle in.

Good luck Mr. Mike,
Chris

Just so it's not a surprise when it happens, even using oil will not prevent O1 from discoloring. Blood will usually give it some color, as will some other things like vinegar, etc. It's normal and is likely going to happen. Just keep the blade clean and oiled and it will perform well, even if it's not quite as bright and shiney as when it was made.

O-1's my favourite steel. The tarnish I get on my personal knives made from O-1 are a visual reminder I've got a keen cutting tool !! I am a carbon tool steel type of knifemaker, so I am obviously a believer in O-1's magical properties !!

t came up on another thread - for all carbon steels, doesn't matter what little tweaks you do with the HT. Just make sure you don't have too coarse a finish... keep it clean, keep it dry and it is important to keep the edge sharp - a quick strop or even a regular touch up of the edge will ensure you don't have gunk sitting there. The edge has the greatest surface area to volume ratio.

Of course, those of you working with knives in very humid conditions or constant moisture, corrosion WILL become a problem. Thats why God brought along KalGard GunKote !! :D

Jason.

Hi Jason,

Thanks for responding, tell me more about this KalGard GunKote. . . where do you get it, how is it applied, wearability, etc.

Thanks again,
-Mr Mike

KalGard Industries (KGI) GunKote is the stuff that Chris Reeve uses on their green Beret Knives.

KalGard make a few different products. If you do a web search under "KG Industries" it will come up. I get the matte black bottle. I wonder if the sain black is not as matte and rough at the surface. A $30 bottle will last for 20 knives if not too much is wasted...

I fully grind and finish heat treating my blades up to the first tempering cycle. The final finish on the blade should be a coarse grit finish or sand blasted clean. I used an air brush sprayer to apply it to start with but now I have a low-pressure paint spray which runs off my air compressor for my blasting cabinet. I find that 35-45psi does the job and doesn' waste too much GunKote.

I spray it up and down the blade with even strokes and it dries pretty much immediately on the steel. I usually go a couple of light coats and check it to make sure it is evenly covered.

then I put it in the oven to coincide with the 2nd and 3rd tempering cycles for the knife at 375F for 1.5hours each time. I do a light touch up spray before the 3rd cycle). before the finish is fully cured by baking, it is soluble with acetone and not hard at all, so you need to be careful not to mar the sprayed finish. You need to hang the blade through a hole in the tang inside the oven.

I then finish by grinding the edge.

please note that this is my technique, KalGard will advise slightly different methods ... I think it is worth trying. It is also available in different colours. If you already have the "peripheral" equipment like spray painting equipment, airbrushing experience, it is a breeze.

GunKote is a complete bummer to ship to my location since the local postal services refuse to ship volatile materials.

I am also experimenting with an Australian paint product that doesn't require baking or spraying to see if it will hold up. I doubt it will have a finish as nice as the GunKote, but I am intending to give it some exposure here on the forums, if it does a good enough job when I have finsihed testing it. BTW, I have already tested 2 other coatings which have failed... I am using KGI GunKote as the benchstandard for comparison.

There are some very good coatings available, and the gunsmiths likely would know even more. But I am after a product that can be used in the home workshop at low cost and without the need to send blades out or needing fancy equipment to achieve.

Hope this helps. It is best to contact KG Industries for their recommendations. Jason.

Hey Jason,

Thanks so much for this information, I'll have to get some and give it a try. :) I found their website and the stuff seems to be reasonably priced.

I guess from your description, this stuff can only be used on knives that have removable scales, so that the complete knife blade and tang areas can be covered. I haven't had any experience with that process yet, any suggestions?

Thanks again for this information,
-Mr Mike

Thats right, I've only used them on hidden tangs and screwed on slab handles. When doing the slab handle ones, you have to be careful not to gum up the threads or close up the pin hole. I've done that before too.

The way I construct those knives is that I completely finish what I want to do with the knife, including the quench, first temper and final grinds, attach the handles with removable screws. Get down to all the final dimensions, detach the scales, spray, and do the 2nd and rd temper cycles, which coincide with the bake cycle and the touch up bake cycle, (if necessary). Reassemble tha handle.

KalGard indicates that the GunKote is supposed to be baked at 325F for at least 1.5hours ... It will become even more durable at a slightly higher temperature - I use 375-385F as I pointed out - Kalgard warns that the colour could change - I have not found that to happen.

Have a go. Would love to see what you use it on. Jason.

HAPPY NEW YEAR Jason,

When you create a knife with detatchable scales, do you tap the tang area or do you have threaded inserts that you install in the tang?

Do you think it would hurt a blade to put the GunCoat on AFTER all of the tempering cycles are already completed? (I'm still alittle new to this heat-treating and tempering stuff).

Thanks again for the information,
-Mr Mike

Actually, Mike, I screw the scales into the opposite side scale using regular threaded bolts I get from the hardware store. The bolts sit inside stepped holes. I use the kind of stepped drill bits used to attach Loveless, Corby and hidden bolt heads. After screwing the bolts in, I fill the holes with black-dyed epoxy. When cured, I sand it back so it looks like its got black ? plastic pins.

I've only started using this method, so I don't even have any pictures of it. The idea was to have a handle that was tensioned together and the countersunk 1/4inch holes can actually be fitted with little inlays like luthiers MOP inlays which are cheap and easy to find. This is provided the handle is fat enough. You do have to be a bit careful to not scuff the already finished tang when sanding the epoxy covering the screws.

You can always apply the GunKote after you have finished all the HT. The reason I apply the GunKote after the 1st tempering cycle is that can cure the GunKote and Temper the blade at the same time on the 2nd and 3rd tempering cycles. Also, I personally find that the 2nd and 3rd tempers actually improves the wear resistance of O-1 enough that it is just that little more difficult to grind if I left everything till all 3 temper cycles are finished.

Remember that if you are going to bake and cure GunKote, it is in effect an additional thermal cycle for the steel. I actually think that another cycle at 325F certainly won't hurt the steel - it won't temper the steel any softer, but it is high enough a temperature that could act LIKE a tempering cycle and help further martensitic conversion - thats a good thing. So either way, you can't lose.

I guess I also wanted to be clear, that I don't necessarily feel the need for coating carbon steel, but some people do feel it is important for realistic reasons. Also, I'm not paid by Kalgard !! :D I just think its a great product. And it can be used in a home workshop once you sort out how to apply it.

And Happy New Year everyone. Jason.

Hi Jason,

Once again, and excellent post.

So, if I understand correctly, you are threading the opposite side scale for the bolt to thread into, then reinforcing the thread area with black epoxy, is that correct? Then, you are sealing the top of the bolt head hole and the hole on the other scale where the threaded area is with a contrasting colored item.

I noticed on your "survival" or "SOG" style knives, it appears that you are using some sort of bolt fastening system to hold those scales in place as well.

One more question if I might. . . concerning the durability of the GunCoat. Have you had experience with it chipping or wearing prematurely? Especially in the area where the sharpening bevel is.

Thanks again for all this information, I will be printing all this out for future reference!! Excellent stuff!!

-Mr Mike

I've use Loveless bolts simple because I still have a supply of them. I usually prefer to use regular brass, NS or SS pinstock and pein the pins in - old fashioned I guess, but I like that.

I am not fond of the "ring and halo" effect that the Loveless bolts give. But gee, it does lock the handle together something awesome.

Your understanding of the threaded bolts is correct. I like using materials you can just get from any hardware store. Many such items are just as strong / useful, its just a matter of making it LOOK the way you want - that does take some imagination and a little experimentation.

Durability of GunCoat. I find it to be VERY DURABLE. At the edge area, I was also very concerned about moisture creeping under the coating and eroding steel from underneath. I've not found that to happen yet. GunKote actually molecularly bonds to the steel, and is not just a coat. It doesn't seem to peel or flake at all - even at the edge bevel. If anything I would describe the wear characteristic as a gradually being rubbed off. Even when that happens, there is still GunKote bonded into the "dips and valleys" of the grinding marks and will still continue to prevent corrosion there when you have started to expose steel. It will put up with blades being hammered through logs to split wood.

I once got all panicky because I scraped my fingernail against a Gunkote-ed blade and came away with a light mark on the blade. Panic !! It turns out the mark on the blade was rubbings from my fingernail that the GunKote had scraped off. I wiped it and it disappeared. The matte finish was still matte.

Jason.

Thank you so much for your detailed answers Jason, you've been a wealth of information.

I'm in the process of trying that method of attaching the scales with bolts, I'll post it when I'm done.

Thanks again,
-Mr Mike

Mr Mike,
Any links, address or any other information that could hook me up with Lee Oates to heat treat my O1 would be greatly appreciated! Having trouble in that area. Thanks in advance!
HW

Waycasy,

Lee Oates is in the Houston area, excellent to work with and does a great job in darned short order!!!

His website is:

Bearclaw Knives (http://www.bearclawknives.com/)

If you click on the "Heat Treating" link in the top portion of the opening page, it will take you right to the heat treat information area. In the area just below the heat treat section has his email address and phone number. But just in case, it's:

Lee Oates
P.O. Box 1391
La Porte, Texas 77572-1391

(281) 587-6080
bearoates@aol.com

It appears that Lee is about an hour from where you are, you lucky dog, you can go visit him!!!

Hope this helps,
-Mr Mike

Mr Mike,
Thank you for your informative reply! You don't know how helpful you have been. I don't have the tools yet to heat treat any blade so this info is very important to me not to mention timely! I actually live about 35 minuets from Lee Oates and I work even closer so a visit from me (pending his approval) could be in my future. Thanks once again for making this world a little smaller for me!
HW

Hi HW,

You are very welcome Buddy, I'm glad I could help.

I am envious though, I wish that I lived as close to Lee as you, so that I could go and visit with him. I'm sure I would learn A LOT!!!

Good luck,
-Mr Mike

Hey Waycasy. Sorry I didn't see your post until now. I'm in Houston and will be at Lee's later this month for the HABA meeting. You can look at more on his website. I've taken just about all the forging/heat treating classes that Lee offers, and he's a great teacher! You can't go wrong. I'm in his shop from time to time causing trouble. :D

Chris

hey all i saw at the begining of the thread about etching 01 first off what does this do for the blade and how does it affect the look of the steel

THX
Bill:evil

Hi there,
Just thought I'd throw in my two cents worth about O-1.
We've heat treated and tested many steels, and nothing is comparable in reliability, hardenability, and sequential hardenability to O-1. In short, it is our favourite, and a little three
in one after each use will keep the surface sound.

Originally posted by Chris Daigle
But you can always etch with FC to add a little durabilty (to the finish) to the blade.

Good luck Mr. Mike,
Chris

What is FC?

FC is Ferric Chloride (spelling??)or also called Radio Shack Printed Circuit Board Etchant from radio shack.

Gun Kote also comes in a spray can you can get from Brownell's. Here:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1150&title=GUN-KOTE?%20OVEN%20CURE,%20GUN%20FINISH