Hi guys,

I've had a couple of questions about both seax and Scottish blades.

Can anyone recommend a book on the seax? It seems to be a popular style blade that looks great, but before I came to this forum I'd never even heard of on before.

Second question is from what I've read the dirk and the little knife (can't remember how to spell it) are later than most people think. My wife and I go to Renfairs a lot and she, with her degree in history, in a stickler on accuracy. What style of blade would be correct for the reigns of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I? Style of dress would be Scottish noble in English court.

Thanks for your time,
Jim

There doesn't seem to be very many books on the Seax... it has been overlooked in favor of the typical double edged Viking blades. There is a lot of online info from various museums though, I'll try to compile some of them and post 'em.

The Scottish dirk has it's direct lineage in the Ballock dagger... which, has, well, two swelling round things on the hilt. The blade shape & general handle shape is much the same and it's really easy to see the evolution. I have a pic of one Circa 1450-80, so the style easily predates good ol' Henry VIII.

I think the Sgian Dubh is more 18th C. though.

For images and more on early Dirks and a Scottish Ballock dagger go here: http://wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/dirk-book/dirks-page1.html

As to the age of the sgian dubh - I tend toe agree with Jon - as worn in the stocking it's quite late - no known Scottish portrait shows one until after 1745. There is earlier reference to the sgian occles - arm pit knife - but even those aren't particularly old.

As to Scottish noble in an English Court - much would depend on whether you are talking Hieland or Lowland nobility, but from my research I would say that either one would more than likely be wearing the English Fashion of the day rather than true Hieland gear which would have been considered barbaric rather than colorful.
There is a story of some of my ancestors - the Burkes of Mayo, Ireland - who upon their release from an English prison during the reign of Elizabeth I, and their return to Ireland climbed to a hill top, stripped off their Anglische clothes, mooned their former captors, and returned to earing their Wylde Ersche garb. At this time the Irish and the Hieland Scots - often kinfolk - had close ties. Funny things was that many of those Wylde Ersche, such as the Burkes, the Fitzgeralds, etc. were actually descendants of the Norman invaders of Ireland yet had become "more Irish than the Irish themselves.

Addendum -
from a letter to Henry VIII ".....and although a great sort of us Redshanks (this a reference to those who wore the kilt without socks or shoes whilst hunting, etc.) go after this manner in our country, yet nevertheless, and please your Grace, when we come to the Court (the King's Grace our great master being alive) waiting on our Lords and masters, who also, for velvets and silks be right well arrayed, we have as good garments as some of our fellows which give attendance in the court everyday."

The above was gleaned form the book "A Short History of the Scottish Dress" RMD Grange, 1966.

Other passages in the above book refer to the weapons and armour of the Scots being the same as the English of the day.

I think almost all the "Fitz" names were Norman invanders, and fiefdoms were gifted by the English Crown after the subjugation. FitzGerald was "the Geraldines" in Normandy and later the "princes" of County Cork, if I remember correctly. Prior to that it is thought they were a clan of goldsmiths in Florence called the Geraldinis who emigrated to Normandy and set up shop.

I guess the good news was "my clan" quickly went native and eventually worked hard to overthrow the occupation. Prob'ly where I get my attitude.... Guess we've never been too good recognizing authority. :D

"Fitz" is like "Mac/Mc" in Gaelic - means essentially the son of.....

"O" in Ireland is more like "the Children of....

Considering my own families background, I figure my "attitudes" genetic as well. :smokin

Thanks for the replies,

I was still going to wear a kilt, as I can't stand the hose or the big puffy pants that are the more common. My wife still wants me to be a little more accurate so I do wear a English style doublet as I seen in several pictures in her books from the era that have some pictures of Scotsmen in kilt and doublet. Now if I understand it the kilt as a garment came from Ireland with a migration, but the Clan identification system of plaids didn't come about for hundreds of years later?

Thanks for looking up the info Jon. I did try a search, but in this case the net has too much information and I don't have a good enough knowledge base to tell the correct info from the B.S. My wife area is the English Court, so she's not a lot of help in weapons of the era.

I will go back through some of my wife's books and check what it may have on weapons of the English and see what they have for court gear.

Thanks for the help,
Jim

Now if I understand it the kilt as a garment came from Ireland with a migration, but the Clan identification system of plaids didn't come about for hundreds of years later?
There are those who will argue this but in general you are correct - in many of the later 18th century paintings show Hielanders wearing as many as 7 different tartan patterns - none of which have any relationship to the "clan" patterns.

As an alternative to the kilt trews - bias cut tartan trousers - were worn during the period you are speaking of and would in fact be more appropriate for court dress. Add a heavily pleated saffron shirt, a doublet, and a light shoulder plaid and you'd be right in fashion. Knee high and thigh boots were frequently worn, although usually not as court wear they can be seen in paintings of the time even during court functions. BTW - slops the short over pants - weren't always puffy.

As to weapons the ballock dagger was in style all over Europe - I have a couple of other pics if you want I can scan for you - and if you want to see a Scottish sword of the era let me know as I have pics of them as well.

For some ideas check out the movie "Mary Queen of Scots" with Vanessa Redgrave - the clothing and the weapons were very well researched and it might give you some ideas.

Chuck,

That sounds a lot better than the kilt. Without the leggings it doesn't work well when it's chilly and can get real hot down here in Texas during the summer.

I would like to see the pictures if you have the time. There is no rush.

Thanks again,
Jim

Jim-
No problem - I'm fighting with the flu - I think I'm winning :D so I'm not doing much else right now - hmmm now if I can just remeber where I put those books....:confused:

I think Mike McRae might have some info on this subject.

Mike McRae (http://www.customknifedirectory.com/CKD_Mainframe.htm?CKD_Profiles_MMcRae-0701.htm~main)

Him and Vince Evans.

Hmm, wasn't the kilt a 19thC English invention? Likewise the formalisation of the clan tartans was a 19thC occurrence . I thought that before then the Scots wore their plaid more like some kind of robe.

Roger

Nope - the great kilt or belted plaid is quite an old garment. Here's a link that shows how it was worn. http://www.tartanweb.com/tweb/greatkilt/

The antiquity of the short kilt is still controversial - there is some evidence of it's early existence, but it did not become popular until the 1820's as did the idea of "clan" tartans. This was at the time that King George IV (think that's right) "rediscovered" his Stewart bloodline and sought to bring the Scots back into the fold. From 1745 until George's rediscovery the kilt, tartan, bagpipes, and the dirk were outlawed.

Jim-
Sorry to have taken so long getting back to this - been fighting the flu and I'm sick of it!:mad:

Anyway here are a couple of distinctly Scottish (basket hilts are 17th century) broadswords circa late 15th century:
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/dirk-book/sword-001.jpg
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/dirk-book/sword-002.jpg

And here are a couple of ballock/kidney/dudgeon daggers:
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/dirk-book/kidney-dagger-001.jpg
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/dirk-book/pg75.jpg

Take the grip from the dagger on the left and add the blade - 12" - from the one on the far right and you would have one dynamite looking Scottish dagger!

Thanks Chuck,

That's exactly what I was looking for.

Jim

Thanks Chuck, I knew we could count on you for the dirks ;)

Roger

Chuck,

On the basket hilt issue I used to think just as you do that it was of strictly 17th century origin. However, I was surprised to find that they pulled up a basket hilted sword (not a rapier) with the Mary Rose. That places it as the first known Basket hilted sword and firmly in the 16th century. The following link to the Mary Rose Trust has the info Handweapons - Page 2 of 3. (http://www.maryrose.org/ship/hand2.htm) And going back to page one has some nice info on Ballock knives as will as link to a paper written on the subject. All very good reading.

Howdy Scott-
Yeah I guess I should clarify that statement - I meant the basket hilt as used in the Hielands as being 17th century. Even in Scotland there is some evidence of it being in use by the 1580's-1590's. In English documents of the early 1600's there is often reference to the "Ersche (Irish/Hieland)" basket hilt so one can extrapolate a somewhat earlier date for it's appearance. On the other hand in all of the extant pictures of the Elizabethan period Irish wars I've only ever seen the Irish Ring Hilted broadsword pictured.

Thanks for the Mary Rose link - it's been a major inspiration for much of my late Medieval work - I made a few quivers and several pairs of shoes based on some of the wrecks items.
NoTE: they do make one erroneous statement re: the Scottish Claymore (sic). Although the basket hilt is often referred to as a claymore, the "true" Claidheamh mor is a hand-and-a-half sword (used as a two handed sword by ground troops) of distinct style with diamond shaped quillons that end in quatrefoil tips made up of four open circles. The quillon block also extends up the grip and has tongues extending down the blade. It was normally carried sheathed (unusual) on a back strap. After MUCH research I finally discovered the "secret" to carrying such a large sword slung on the back..........Il can do a sketch to illustrate the how if anybody is interested.

Hi guys,

As soon as I get my over time I'm going to order the materials for the making of a seax for myself.

From the information I've read on the forum damascus (pattern welded) steel was used in the middle ages thru the renaisance. Would it be to far out to use thunder forge for the seax? Just the simple twist or would it be better to use the random pattern that damasteel uses? I don't have to have perfect period but I don't want to deal with the looks I'll get from using say a heat colored rain drop. If anyone else has a source they'd recommend for something closer please pass it on. I have about $300-500 range to work on for materials for the whole project.

Another question is what would be a good handle material? I love the oosic that Jon used on severial of his knives, but I haven't seen much that is good and large enough for the handle.

The last question is what kind of sheath do these knives tradionally have? The only sheath I've seen was a wooden sheath posted a couple months ago and I don't even have a clue were to begin with one of those.

Thanks for your time,
Jim

The Norse patterns I have seen are straight laminates, ladder patterns or twisted patterns. And of course we have also seen multi bar patterns where the edge is a straight laminate and the core bars are twisted patterns (often an interrupted twist that reverses from the twist of the bar next to it).

As for a sheath. The examples I have seen are almost all of leather construction. It is a deep pocket sheath where it extends half way or more up the handle. The sheath seem forms the hanger attachment. The sheath hangs almost parallel to the belt with the edge of the blade down.

Handle material in surviving examples is wood, horn or bone in most cases. Boxwood is used on most wooden handles.

Knives and scabbards. Medieval finds from excavations in London
by Jane Cowgill, Margrethe De Neergaard, Nick Griffiths
(1987), London : H.M.S.O.

this has most of the info you are looking for. also for an example of sheaths goto http://www.arkeodok.com/Knives%20example.html

Thanks,

You have recommended this book before and I've really got to get off my butt and get it:D . Thanks for the other info and the link. I have a book on the Scandinavian style knives and sheaths and it does cover that style sheath.

Thanks again,
Jim

Jim-
Most Scottish Dirks and sword sheath were of wooden core structure with a leather cover. Here's a link to Vince Evans site - Go to the Scottish Dirk Construction and scroll down on the left side to see the how-to on the sheath.
Scottish Dirk Sheath
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?username=vevans
Vince also has other galleries with lots of pics of Scottish swords and dirks and.....

You can also use a heavy weight vegtan for the liner and then cover with a light weight 2/3 oz cover. ALthough not "period" if you use wood I recommend using plywood (keeps that sword sheath from breaking so easily when you trip over it) and shaping before covering with leather. I just did a post on the Sheath Forum about doing a sword sheath that might help http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18532

Contrary to the carry elsewhere in Scotland and Ireland the Dirk was almost always carried forward of the hip in a vertical position. Here's a pic of an Irish Chieftain of a slightly later period, but the style in Ireland and Scotland didn't change very quickly and is keeping with earlier block prints:
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/historical/oneill-1680.jpg
I have seen some dirks carried vertically just over the hip as well. The belt attachment was usually nothing more than a leather thong threaded the rear center seam and then tied to the belt via a couple of holes in the belt.

Here's some other links that might be of interest:
http://www.scottishsword.com/
http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/dirk.html

Chuck,

One word for those links.... WOW. Thanks for the one on the hilt construction, it's great. A dirk and ballock are definately in the future. I assume that the handle work is the same technique for all three styles of blades (dirk, ballock and seax) ?

I like the way the the sheath is done. It looks like I have a lot of practice ahead of me.

Jim

I heard those kilts used to be shorter. 8o