View Full Version : Shark tooth Seax


hammerdownnow
12-05-2003, 11:54 AM
http://www.andrew.jordan.scarlet.nl/projects/saex2000.htm
http://www.andrew.jordan.scarlet.nl/catalog/I~000092.jpg

J.Arthur Loose
12-05-2003, 02:31 PM
Excellent billet!

Though I'm going to have to call the final product a Bowie... :p

Coutel
12-05-2003, 07:25 PM
Very interesting.

Still cant get my head around how it is done though!

On a second note.....I like the design of the finished knife, especialy how the guard looks like it is on backwards....but it works so well.
Kevin.

hammerdownnow
12-05-2003, 09:03 PM
Which came first, the Bowie or the Seax? It is my notion,(possibly insane) that the clip point bowie evolved from the seax.

J.Arthur Loose
12-06-2003, 03:06 AM
There's a term for it in biology... can't remember what it is; but it's when two almost identical organisms evolve due to similar circumstances in complete genetic isolation from each other. I think the seax and the bowie are like that. I think the only real difference between them is the guard... and some seaxes seem to have had small ones.

But the seax died out in the 11th or 12th C and the bowie doesn't come back until maybe the late 1700's in England / America? Both are a combination fighter / bushwhacker / survival / utility piece and no one was doing all of those in between the end of the Viking Age and the *Southern* European ( :p ) discovery of America.

But that's conjecture on my part. Anyone else got ideas... info?

Coutel
12-06-2003, 08:29 AM
I spent a lot of my time the last 12 months studying early blade styles , the Seax in particular. I visited all the main museums in London to trace many of the actual knives that I had seen and read about as well as learning what I could about historic knives and general designs. I had a fantastic time and had to repeat my visits a couple of times just to take it all in and compare my notes.
(If you ever visit London, include the Wallace Collection (Museum) on your tours.....a not very well publicised private collection which includes a variety of medieval weaponry).

The bowie style can definately be seen in some seax designs..but I dont think the bowie was ever directly influenced by the seax....it was just a natural step in evolution?.

To me, the 'Seax' conjurs up many types of designs (clips) and sizes, that the word 'seax' is a generalization of knives that were common in that period of history.

Even today, the 'bowie' style cannot be determined exactly....did the original have a pronounced clip, a guard etc?.....no one knows for sure.

A thousand years from now historians may re classify the 'bowie' as an 'American Seax':D ...lol

Kevin.

Roger Gregory
12-06-2003, 11:36 AM
Jon, I have to disagree with the suggestion that the seax died out in the 11th or 12th century. An awful lot of mediaeval knives dredged up from the Thames look very seax-like to me.

I think it was just a design that worked so people kept making knives that way. As far as I am concerned, it still works ;)

Roger

J.Arthur Loose
12-06-2003, 01:06 PM
Roger,

I'd love to see a pic or link or biblio... if you can stretch the seax-like blade to the 1500 - 1600 era you could establish a continuous lineage, which would be kinda cool.

Mike Hull
12-06-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by J.Loose
There's a term for it in biology... can't remember what it is; but it's when two almost identical organisms evolve due to similar circumstances in complete genetic isolation from each other.


Parallel development?
That happens a lot in current knife design too.;) :D

sjaqua
12-11-2003, 02:13 PM
To Coutel,

Yup! the Wallace Collection is one of London best kept secrets. Or at least it was in the late 1980's, when I was there last. The three volume arms and armour catalog from the Wallace Collection , holds pride of place amongst my research books.

To All,

The London Museums, Knives and Scabbards book, is perhaps the best reference on early period Seax/Bowie patterns. It is one of the few works in my collection that focuses on working knives more then military or presentation blades.

Drac
12-11-2003, 02:48 PM
Sjaqua,

Do you have the BSN# on that book?

Jim

sjaqua
12-11-2003, 03:20 PM
Jim,

Don't have that book at the office. But from my post to the book shelf topic here is what I wrote back then.

Knives and scabbards. Medieval finds from excavations in London
by Jane Cowgill, Margrethe De Neergaard, Nick Griffiths
(1987), London : H.M.S.O.


It's from Her Majesties Stationary Office and it doesn't look like I have a BSN#

Drac
12-11-2003, 03:27 PM
Sorry,

I ment ISBN#. I found the book on an Amazon search,

Thanks for the referance,
Jim

Roger Gregory
12-11-2003, 05:16 PM
Knives and scabbards. Medieval finds from excavations in London
by Jane Cowgill, Margrethe De Neergaard, Nick Griffiths
(1987), London : H.M.S.O.
ISBN 0112904408

shgeo
12-12-2003, 05:34 PM
The term for individual development of similar traits in unrelated taxa is convergent evolution.

Mike Hull
12-12-2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by shgeo
The term for individual development of similar traits in unrelated taxa is convergent evolution.


Thanks!!:D

DiamondG Knives
12-13-2003, 07:00 AM
Hammerindown
That is a fantastic piece, It is such a treat to see the research behind the insperation! Only hope to be able to make somthing close someday.

You refered to "purified wrought iron" can you describe this, and the process?

Thank You

God Bless

Mike

hammerdownnow
12-13-2003, 07:25 AM
Geez mike, I surely did not mean to imply that I had made that knife. The closest I ever came to mosaic damaskus was digging a stub out of the garbage that Ron Newton threw away. :D I got that link from the primal fires Wootz and Pattern welding forum. If you are interested go there for some good reading on the subject. Sorry for the confusion.

Wootz and pattern welding (http://pub53.ezboard.com/fprimalfiresfrm24)

DiamondG Knives
12-13-2003, 04:24 PM
LOL! Oh well, you got me thinking anyway!

God Bless

Mike

Jan Dox
12-16-2003, 02:04 PM
There is a model in mail-order catalogs called a "Solingen bowie" with a straight clip and that's halfway between a seax and a bowie and doesn't have a guard.

Jan

ELDE
01-21-2004, 03:06 PM
Just a few words about what is regarded as "the scramasaxe era" in France : Merovingian dinasty of Francs kings beginning with Clovis in 481 and ending with Chilpéric in 751. During that time , the scramasaxe was the all around knife and is found in tombs of warriors and peasants alike.

After the 8-9 th century, catholic religion became official religion and prevented the burial with weapons, tools , table-ware...

ELDE

hammerdownnow
03-26-2004, 05:30 PM
That makes sense Elde. That the pattern continued, but the burial customs changed. Good logical thought. Here is another nice pattern by Jordan. Everyone see the video?

http://www.jordanknives.com/catalog/portfotos/AJ0050.jpg

Video (http://ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21139)

J.Arthur Loose
03-26-2004, 05:45 PM
That is a beautiful pattern...

hammerdownnow
08-24-2005, 11:34 PM
Bada boom, Bada bump. Just to make this old gem easier to find.