I have something that is eating away at me on the forums and I would like others opinions about it. I know that at least one other person disagrees with me on this and I don't have any hard feelings about it but it just does not make sense to me in the overall scheme of things.

BILLBOARDING

To me billboarding is posting the same question in multiple forums to try to get maximum exposure to a question. Kinda like posting a question in three forums asking what epoxy to use. The person asking the question gets his replies but there are three threads out there answering the question. If a new person comes along and see ONE of the threads, he will misss out on the answers given in the other two. Lately this seems to be happening a lot and it bothers me personally.

I was under the impression that we named the forums and gave them topic headers so that the questions would be posted in the forum that seems to be closest to the topic at hand. If that is the case, a question should go into only one forum. If the person accidently posts to the incorrect forum or there is a better forum for the question, the moderators could suggest a move and relocate the post, as has been done many times.

The argument that I got earlier (offline) was that not everyone reads all of the forums so a question may not get all of the possible answers from everyone because they don't go to the forums where the questions should probably be posted if there would only be one forum allowed per question.

Enough of my rambling. The question I would like feedback on is this; Is it in the best interest of the forum to allow billboarding?

Please respond with some justification of your position so I can understand why you feel the way you do.

Personally, I don't like it. I would like ALL of the answers to a question to be together and not scattered over several forums.

So, how do you guys feel about it? How would we control it if we decide it is not a positive thing for the forums?

I agree Bob. Thinking that you wouldn't get enough answers because not everyone visits every forum is not valid.

For example, Terrill Hoffman probably doesn't visit the Newbies forum or Ed Caffrey's forum. Are folks expecting to get info on TTT diagrams for hypo/hyper-eutectoid steels from Terrill? Of course not.

People with the answers will naturally be visiting forums that deal with their area of expertise -- if they want to be answering questions to begin with. If they aren't feeling well and don't feel like answering a question, it doesn't matter how many forums the question is posted in.

Posting the same question in multiple forums is a wasted entry in the database and wasted space on the server.

The vBulletin software is setup to handle this sort of thing (they knew this would happen). Threads can be merged. I don't know if moderators can merge threads across forums or not. If not, I can. We can merge all the replies into a single thread in a single forum.

I don't have much time these days (and I know you can relate you old full-timer you). But I did just go in and move a few basic level heat-treating questions from the General forum to the Newbies forum.

[ EDIT]
He comes back and say's ...

Regarding the moving of threads to a more appropriate forum, there is an option in vBulletin which we didn't have on the old ezBoard forums. Moderators and Administrators can move a thread and leave a redirect in the original forum.

That will prevent any complaining about "Where's my post?"

It leaves the topic header behind, and redirects the viewer to the new location when the topic is clicked on.
[/EDIT]

Just to weigh in- I'm in full agreement with both of you, and have occasionally looked like a grouch by saying something about it to the offenders.

I'm not a moderator, but I do agree that "billboarding" is distracting, to say the least. I read the forums by clicking on the link that gives me all the posts since my last log-in. So if someone posts the same thing in three forums, I get to see it three times.

In this case, I try to answer in the appropriate forum. But if it can be curbed, that would be great.

At least from this participant's point of view.

Of course, I'm with you guys, too. Just last week, I sent a personal email to a new fellow who posted three HT questions everywhere. I was polite but offered the same input. (Just so you know you're not alone!)

I see posts made that appear so basic and open-ended in scope that it's obvious the person didn't even attempt to use the search feature. Pics can also be offenders.

As it is, it would almost always be a newbie that does this. How do we communicate without accusation? That's the CKD challenge. It's a tough one.

Sounds like we need a Forum guideline sticky post!

Reminds me of the For Sale topic... :rolleyes:

Coop

...just to make sure, and I don't think so, but I'll ask anyway...

...do you feel the same way when someone posts the same piece in the display case and in the maker's sale forum? I often post one piece in both of them at the same time because I feel like the display case is not the place to make a sales pitch and the maker's sales isn't the place for comments.

Thoughts?

I agree with the point on questions very much, btw.

Apples and oranges from my perspective, Jon- I see no problem with dual posts in that case.

Just to clarify and in the same vane as Jon's question what about posting say in the Sheathmaking Gallery and the Display case? Or the Historical Inspiration and the Display case? Different venues with different purposes.

I also agree that the multiple question posting is annoying and mostly unneccessary but do the moderators have enough time to collate all multiples? And what if the question gets put in a forum and then receives no answers, but might have if put in more than one place. For instance some of the newbies may post only in the newbies forum thinking that is the correct and proper place and yet not receive the quantity of answers because many of the "older" members just don't go there.
Like Jamey I use a link - http://www.ckdforums.com/search.php?s=&action=getdaily - that Martyn posted a while back that allows me to see all of the new daily posts in one spot without surfing all forums. I frequently see some posts get left by the wayside due to lack of response. As a though this link might be of use to the moderators as you get an instant overview of the newest posting across the board.

My pet peeve - folks not utilizing the search engine more.

Same here Jon. I don't see any problem with that. You post one for the masses to admire and comment on in the Display Case, and one in the For Sale area for the buyers to see that it is available and what the price is.

I can think of some other special situations. For example, we have the Outpost. This is actually a separate group who was looking for a place to hang their hat, and Alex set them up here.

In this case, many of the active Outpost members don't venture outside that forum. It wouldn't bother me much if someone asked about draw filing in one the regular forums, and asked for opinions from the guys in the Outpost as well.

There's going to be some gray areas in my opinion, and we don't have to worry about micro-managing this thing down to the n'th degree. The ones that really need to be addressed will be obvious. If some of those in a gray area get skipped over, no big deal.

Chuck, I was posting about the same time you were. The situation you mentioned doesn't bother me either personally.

The one thing that we need to keep in mind is that we don't have to have everything 100% right all the time. We'll just do the best that we can to keep things smooth for the members.

Any moving and/or merging is just a courtesy and not a police action.

Thanks Terry-

That's what I figured but it's nice to know that others feel the same way. :D

Still I really think that Bob's got it right about the questions as it is sure nice to have all the answers in one place whenever possible. Of course using the internal search engine is a BIG aid to that.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. :) Good responses.

It's not a perfect world, is it??!

Coop

some time ago, we suggested a forum be placed up top to post welcome messages & introductions. i still think this would be a good idea. seems to me that a LOCKED sticky message or two there outlining suggested forum conduct and answers to faq that are specific to ckdf would be appropriate.
.
as to the the current subject - what coop said. :)

but i disagree. i think that multiple questions are ok to an extent
i know ive posted a question in one forum and got some views but no replies and then posted it somewhere else and gotten plenty of replies. so if i really need an answer soon ill post in 2 or 3 forums. i do agree that the search button should be used, but one think i HATE about the search is that 2 letter words cant be used, well i use o1 steel so you can see my problem unless someone has a way around this. JMO thx

Bill



Sweeet:evil

Bill,
While it's true that the search engine requires three characters for a search sequence, you can use the asterisk (*) as a wildcard. If you go into search and key in *01, you'll get 296 matches on it. Well, now that I've put it in this post, you'll get more than that.

The moderators try to help move threads to an area where you'll get better responses, but if they miss one you can always get one of us to help you find the best forum for the question.

Sometimes not getting a quick reply is because everyone is busy. We all have real jobs. We just donate spare time (whatever that is) to the forums. You can't always get instant real time answers.

i understand that like i said jmo

Bill


Sweeet:evil

I`m with Bill on this

As a person that probably answers more questions than askes them, I would like the "askers" to look at it from my point of view. Some people here know that I will type for an hour if I have to in an attempt to CLEARLY get the answer to the person asking a question. So imagine that I come to the forum and see a question about heat treating. I could spend a lot of time replying to that question in the newbies forum. And when I finally get done answering the question, I decide to look at the other questions. Then I see that Terry Primos answered the same question in the general forum and Ed Caffery answered it in his forum. Now three people have spent a good quanity of time trying to help someone only to find out that if the question was asked only once, two of the three would have not wasted their time and the other one would have answered the question.

I have actually started looking for multiple posts and don't bother to answer ANY of them.

As for trying to get answers "right away". I personally think that is unfair to the forum. We are here to help but we are not here "on demand." You should lay out your method for your knifemaking. Think about the steps involved and ask questions about your plan, get it right and them prepare to start. You should then be asking questions about things you plan to do in a few days, this way we will have time to answer them BEFORE you need the answer. That is only fair to the rest of us.

BEFORE you ask your questions, it would be nice (not required) if you searched for it first, then ask clarifying questions. Many of us answer the same question every week. I have been asked where I buy my stencil material so many times I get frustrated answering it, I do, but it is frustrating since that info is so very easy to find with a search.

One of the things that make this forum superior to other furums in my opinion is the courtesy we show each other. The true professionalism and respect between the members. To me when someone willingly allows me to waste my time and energy to help them out is being unfair to me and is disrespectful to the ones you are asking your question to.

We help by choice, we help because we want to help, we help to promote knifemaking and we help because some of the people here are just #### nice people. Please do not waste our time, it may take a lot longer to get that urgent answered if people are upset with you for asking in so many places.

look up my old post and you'll see that ever time i end with thx, if you have the time, etc. ive even said how nice the people are here. but explain how some post in some forums dont get replies but in another forum they do. like i said thats just the way i feel. i do agree with the search button but i completly disagree with with someone not answering a post because the person broke some unwritten rule. if everyone feels that way make it a written rule, then there will be no problems.
(Quote)
As for trying to get answers "right away". I personally think that is unfair to the forum. We are here to help but we are not here "on demand."

I never meant it t sound like that and for that i am sorry. But i still see no reason to be childish and punish people for trying to learn as much as poss. even if it's not in the way you'd like them to. Not trying to start a fight everyone has helped me here a great deal, just saying what i feel


Bill


Sweeet:evil

I think one reson posts get answers and others don't is twofold. One, some people in a forum like "tool time" may not answer questions about something like how to make pivot pins because they may not know and leave that for the people in the folder forum to answer. The folder guys are more likley to know an answer and provide it to you. That is why the forum is broken up into topics, so the people knowlegeable in the topic area you are interested in can see your question. A lot of the folder guys may not be interested in tool time forum and therefore don't visit it and in return they don't even see your question.

If we allow billboarding, we might as well just do away with the topics and have one big general discussion and no individual forums.

As for being childish, I think you are being unreasonable with that statement and it offends me. Childish would be to tell you something I know is wrong and then laugh at you for wasting your time and money chasing ghosts. I think I have proven myself to be above that.

As for "Punishing" people, I don't do that. Punishing you would be more in the lines of doing something negative to you to hurt you. Punishing you would be similar to banning you from the forums, that is what I would consider punishment. My not answering a question is my perogative, it is FREE advise. I am not required to answer you, I do so because I want to. If there is something that bothers me, I have every right to just pass the post by without answering the question. We do not get paid, we have absolutely NO reason to be obligated in any way.

You have seen the replies of several of the long time people of this forum and you can see that they also do not like "billboarding." Now, knowing that the people that are going to be answering your questions don't like it, why would you continue to do it?

We help because we get personal satisfaction out of helping, if that personal satisfaction stops, so does the desire to help. If I had questions, I would make efforts not to make the answer people mad.

Feel free to billboard if you want. I don't own the forum and I don't make the rules. I just pass them by when I see them.

Originally posted by Omega
look up my old post and you'll see that ever time i end with thx, if you have the time, etc. ive even said how nice the people are here. but explain how some post in some forums dont get replies but in another forum they do.

Well it's simple and obvious: you got your answer in the appropriate forum. And if it wasn't he appropriate one, then you got lucky. Folks there may have wanted to help what appeared to be a newbie.

Of course you are polite--and we ALL appreciate your courtesy. 'Thx' is a good thing. But it still doesn't justify multiple posts. Bill, multiply yourself time 1500 members. Think of the chaos if everyone took your point of view.

There are exceptions and these have been pointed out. It all boils down to being patient and courteous.

The guys who deliver the *most* of their free time helping you and me and everyone else have asked for folks to refrain. It's hardly a stiff requirement. You can say AND do what you feel, but you know where I stand on this. I'm supporting Bob.

Sorry for the differing opinion, but I don't like seeing sound reasoning degraded and objected to.

Coop

can't help the objection but no degradation was intended and im sorry if i came off that way. i just dont see the chaos in posting in say the newbies forum and the general knife... forum.
as for as your post goes bob you misunderstood what i was saying you have helped me in the past and i appriciate it very much, i just dont see why you or anyone would mind writting an answer. im a personal trainer and at work/online/@ conferences i answer the same types of questions over and over and it really does not bother me so that is just how i feel. i feel that if two or three "experts" write an answer everyone gets diff. points of view. now this is not why ive done it in the past but i dont think multiple expect answers is a bad thing.
now if the people on this forum feel diff. than i have no problem following suit what i dont like is feeling that if i upset the "answer people" ill be given no help.
as i said before i thank you all for the help and kindness that you've shown me and everyone else here. free advise or not it is helpfull and appriciated. please dont take offence to what i say its not meant to me hurtfull in any way, sometimes i guess i come of ruffer that i mean to.



Bill


Sweeet:evil

I'm a personal trainer and at work/online/@ conferences i answer the same types of questions over and over and it really does not bother me so that is just how i feel.

Bill I am not trying to be impertinent, but are you getting paid for answering those multiple questions? Maybe that is part of the difference. Many of us here take time away from making a living (Bob, Terry, myself, and many others are full-time makers - our only income is from doing our craft) to answer questions. As an example the last Tutorial I wrote took me about 8 hours (I am admittedly a slow typist but still....). At my shop rate of $50.00 an hour that means I used up $400.00 worth of working time. Now I wouldn't take that time and neither would anybody else here if we didn't WANT to. When I started doing my craft (leather and knives) some 30+ years ago there were NO forums such as this and all the answers I got were through diligent study and research. Now I, and I assume most of the "old timers" here are pretty much the same - we are glad to help and share this knowledge but when the same question gets asked continuously over and over again that can get frustrating (I can't tell you the number of times I've looked at a question that I couldn't necessarily answer but took the time to use the search function and/or the Internet search to find an answer - the same thing the person asking could have done).
Now you are right - differing points of view are definitely helpful, but having a little patience for others to answer is all we are asking. And wouldn't it be better to have all the different points of view in one place? Finally, I can't speak for everybody, but I don't have a problem with anybody posting the same question in a different forum if after a period of time you didn't get an answer or wanted/needed further clarification. Heck I've even advised folk to do that at times.

O.K. I'VE DONE IT A TIME OR TWO MYSELF:( I KNOW WHAT BOB
IS TALKING ABOUT AND WHY HE FEELS THIS WAY.THERE ARE SOME THAT ACT AS THE FORUMS ARE A DEAR ABBY:D ASKING QUESTION
ARE FINE BUT BOMBBARDING THEM WITH THE SAME QUESTION
OVER AND OVER ARE A BIT TIRED. IF THE ANSWERS WERE HERE TODAY AND GONE TOMAROW I COULD SEE ASKING THE SAME ONE OVER AND OVER BUT THEIR NOT .YOU CAN GO BACK TO LAST YEAR AND READ INFO TRY THE SEARCH BUTTON MORE THAT WHAT WE DO ON THE NET. :) NOW THAT MY NECK IS ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK HAVE AT IT:D

rose i dont always get paid to answer, heck i was in for minor surgery the other day and the doctor was asking me about her diet. i really dont want anyone to get upset at what i said, i honestly understand all your points i think you may have misunderstood me or i didnt make myself clear i feel multiple post are ok if two post are appropriate for the question (newbies/general, display/sales/fine embelishment) again i dont expect anyone to drop what they are doing to answer a question when its asked but i will rewrite the question in another forum if i dont get any responses in a few days. like i said this is everyones forum and if the majority want just one post im happy to follow suit.

Bill


Sweeet:evil

Bill,
I don't think anyone has answered more of your questions than I.
I am happy to help in any way I can, true, but for example, I might only get here once or twice a week.I spend about 10 hours a week here, times my shop rate,equals what would be a paycheck to most. NO ONE here gets paid to help.We do because we want to, simple as that.
In our society, we want things fast.
Good stuff IS worth waiting for.
CKD is a great tool, but NOT a microwave oven that gives instant results. Time is a gift. Knowledge is like gold.What we offer is like keys that make things work, or a tool that makes work simple.
I think Bob is asking for more respect for our time, and help not to waste it.Wasted time will never be used again.
Give us some time Bill,All questions are important. The only "stupid" question is the one that was never asked, it can not be answered.No question too big or too small, but all need time for response.We are not compensated with anything but the satisfaction of helping you.Help us do that,OK?
We all want to help or we wouldn't be here.
It just takes time, not more pecking.
The more times it is asked, the longer it takes us to cover everything, risking a missed opportunity to answer others who need help too.
As a matter of courtesy,please be patient. We will get there.

you have helped me greatly geno and i thank you and all others greatly we just seem to differ on this subject. but im not some jerk who wants it his way. like i said im totally willing to follow the pack and play by the rules. i hope no one took any real offence to anything i said i most definatly did not mean any harm.
to anyone who might have im sorry.


Bill



Sweeet:evil

Bill - no offense taken on my part and please realize that nobody was singling you out.

I'm witchya, Bill. Thanks for your honesty. :)

Coop