Have any of you had to wait for an ordered knife and considered/felt that it was wait too long? If so what do you think would be a remedy? And should there be changes on the makers' end also?

If you go to a maker and ask their backlog and it is 2 or more years, do you:

1: Tell them you will order when their backlog is shorter?
2: Sigh and say to yourself, it's to be expected from so-and-so they are a big name maker?
3: Go elsewhere where the wait is not so long?

Yes this is shallow just on the stand point of time, but I am the customer after all, why should I have to wait 2-3 years for a knife? I know that is the way it has always been and will always be. But is there something the makers themselves can do to lessen the wait for the customer?

1: Take orders only to a certain point in the future, and when backlog is decreased by 30-50% take orders again up to that theoretical point?
2:Make knives quickly and carelessly to satify their orders and lose customers through inattention to detail?
3: Make knives for a certain number of years and then stop and take a break for a few years and start fresh?


You will agree that choce #2 would be detrimental to the maker and the customer, but there it is.

These are just a few questions, and meant to stimulate conversation, not flames. I am sure most collectors and makers fall outside of those catagories/question bracketing. They are not the only questions that you as the collector can ask, nor should they be.

I want your thoughts on the subject.

A 3 year wait is crazy, but what is a maker to do. But is it better to stop taking orders?

I do not have a 3 years backlog, more like a year..(and as it looks now, being out of regular job more like 4-5 months). Should the maker take some resposiblity and say no, that's too long to make a customer wait? Having 1 years wait is too long I think cause I have no idea where I am in 1 year. Because of that I had customers that have waited almost a year....on orders I promissed 6-7 months wait. This was because of the massive schoolwork I had to put in in the spring to finish my studies..the timeframe is hard to plan....but I need the orders...what should I do then...I make them as good and as fast as I can...in that order. I guess you have to do what your own situation dictates.

Could the big names back off a bit and make their wait times more rasonable. I don´t think so. It wont matter if they stop taking orders untill they are back to 6 months..cause they will be filled the same day they open again. The actual wait from order date will be smaller but but fewer would be able to order..I think it is fair that who ever wants to order can...instead of a lottery and being on the right place the right time
I dont think it would work...it would leave them out of focus except for the few days they take orders...not good buisness. Ofcourse they would be able to focus on making the knives, but no buisness without spotlight.

Onlu suggestion is to stop taking orders and sell each knife as the finish, but that would put a stop on customorders and the secure feeling of having the orderbook filled is hard to give up for those who live of knifemaking.

Paul,

If a maker tells you it's two years. You have two choices:

1) Wait

2) Don't Wait.

That being said, my experience that most makers who claim a multi-year wait, don't really have that long of a wait.

Do you know what you are doing two years from today? Neither does the knife maker.

Additionally, a large percentage of those on the list will not take the knife if and when it is actually delivered.

People, move, get married, get divorced, have kids, send kids to college, get out of collecting knives, change the direction of the collection or just forgot they ordered the knife. The list of reasons why people no longer want a knife after two years can be a fairly long one.

Also, with those makers, within that two year wait. They are sending knives to dealers as well as attending shows where they have knives for sale.

So, if you can attend a show, you wait is substantially less than two years.

Example, for years George Herron had a 10 year wait (still does). However, if you ordred a knife at say the Blade Show. He would deliver it the following year. George has since stopped taking new orders.

Why do makers do this, that is bring knives to shows when they are two years behind?

Two reasons;

1) The maker has expenses that have to be covered by sales at the show.

2) By the makers knives being available as well as the maker being available. They are helping keep their name out there among custom knife buyers.

This helps the maker as well as their collectors.

I find it interesting that people have such a negative impression of a cusotm knife maker having a long delivery time.

I view this as a postive aspect of custom knives. It tells me two things.

1) Custom knives are in demand

2) There are people who demand quality and will wait for it.

When I first started working with Al Polkowski, I had to wait 2 years for my first knives to be delivered. I then had orders placed to refill that intial order. I now regularly get knives from Al.

It is the same with many of the top makers I work with. Just like the customers, I had to wait my turn in line. It's just when it was my turn to order....I ordered 10.

Paul, I do agree that makers with multi-year waits should consider not taking orders. The difficulty comes in when makers, who know that there are several cancellations on that waiting list, have to make the decision to turn away work.

Paul as one who is self-employed Im sure you can understand that problem.

Actually, I don't have a problem with a two year wait.

What I do have a problem with is a two year wait that becomes a 5 1/2 year wait.

Worse yet a 3 month wait that becomes a 12 month wait.

This is a bigger problem than multi-year wait makers. As you know up front it is going to be years.

Most of us who have been buying custom knives for a few years have come across the maker who knowing he has a 8 month wait, quotes 4 months so he won't lose the order.

Then there are all kinds of excuses associated with the additional 4 months required to complete the knife.

These makers don't realize that by lying to you. They have impacted your ability to purchase other knives or attend shows. Because you think your money is going to have to be spent in 4 months.

A few will welcome the additional time, as expenditures do have a way of popping up. But for the majority, all it does is piss them off. Making their knife buying experience an unhappy one.

Les

This is a funny one, funny strange no funny haha. As I see it dealers like Les are going to have a significantly less wait then the regular collector. Les has got buying power, not to take away from him, but look at it from a makers point of view, 10 knives going to a guy who will end up promoting me whether he wants to or not (he wants to) because it sells his inventory or one knife to a collector. Sure the collectors outnumber the dealers so you have to sell to collectors as well. Also guys like Dexter Ewing (sorry to mention names guys, but you are here) I feel will get some preferential treatment. Hey, with the makers that I've established a rapport with I figure I'm going to do better than a johnny-come-lately. But this is the paying of the dues that everyone has to do in whatever field they are in.

In the other thread I mentioned a 3 year wait, but there where extenuating circumstances first the maker had physical problems and had surgery that prevent knife making for a while then when he started doing my knife he got a bad piece of steel and didn't feel right about selling me a knife that had dimples in the steel. The knife would have worked fine it was strictly an aesthetic problem. He showed me the problem steel and said he'd make a beater knife out of it for someone and made a new blade for me.

So here the maker was just as concerned with the wait as I was and he did whatever he could to alleviete my concerns. Was it worth it Oh Yeah. To someone else maybe not.

Les, is also right when he says that many makers (the good ones anyway) will overstate their delivery times. They say 1 year but you'll get it in 6-8 months. I call this the "Scotty Syndrome" anyone remember good old Scotty from the Old StarTrek. He made a guest apperence on one of the new Star Trek show's and he says to Jordy (the new chief engineer) "How are people going to think your a miracle worker, if you tell them exactly how long it will take" The idea is simple you know it will take 6 months you tell them a year. The customer gets it in 6 months and he's thrilled. Plus it gives the maker some leeway incase "Life" intrudes.

The simplest answer (after all this) is that the wait is too long when you decide it's too long. Hopefully you'll decide this before you put in an order for 5 years later.

I have only had to wait at most a couple of months beyond the estimated time of delivery for a knife. As long as I am kept in the loop this does not bother me.

I have just ordered a knife from Ed Fowler. He informed me that he has a 7 year waiting list. I ordered the knife anyway, because I want a pronghorn and want to deal directly with Ed. I could go to a show that he was attending and get one sooner, but I would rather spend my money on knives than on hotels and airfares.

Another remedy for a long wait time would be for the maker to hire someone to do the grunt work and some of the preliminary and finishing work on the knife. That might include such duties as profiling the blade, polishing the handle, or maybe putting the sheath together. From what I have read it seems that many people would consider this to be cheating and expect the person they want making the knife to do the whole job.

Jerry,

All custom knife buyers, have buying power. Collectors seldom if ever can agree on a maker or knife they want.

If they could (say you get 5 collectors who want either the same knife or at least a knife from the same maker). If you approached a maker with a 5 knife order, you might be able to get 5 or 10% off.

Then each of you gets a knife, in which the retail is more than what you have in the knife. Your collection know has some built in equity above the money you have put into it.

Jerry is right, I am in a unique position. Having bought over 1 Million dollars worth of custom knives since I went full time.

But there are other dealers who have spent that much and more. There are individual collectors who have spent that much and more.

I don't think it is my "buying power" that gives me an edge. Quite frankly if I went away tomorrow, most of the makers I work with, would find individuals to replace the dollars I spend with them. Most would do it in a timely manner.

What I bring to the table that collectors do not is exposure.

Again, collectors can do this as well. Example there is a Internet knife group called the;

The Knife Collector List (TKCL). This group commissioned several knives from it's maker members. The knives were available for a short periord of time and you had to be a member of the list. The makers did not make much money on these knives. They did however get a lot of exposure on the list.

Ths same could be done here at CKD.

Jerry, believe it or not I have to wait, just like everyone else. Yes, because of my position in custom knives I do get knives a little quicker.

However, I generally plan 12-18 months in advance for an Vanguard knife or other project I am working on. This will give just about any maker out there, who wants to, time to fit me in to their schedule.

I find if you approach it from a business point of view and not just hound a maker for their knives, they are much more receptive to that.

The other thing I have done over the years is bascially stop working with makers who cannot meet deadlines.

Back before the Internet when all there were was knife shows and catalogs. It was very important for me to get knives in time for the shows I was attending. I was in the Army for the first 8 years of my time as a dealer. Consequently, my main selling avenue was shows.

So when a maker missed that deadline it really irritated me. Because I missed one of my best opportunities to sell the knife.

After I went full time (still before the Internet), it became even more important that the makers I worked with delivered on time. As this was no my sole source of income (no I did not retire from the Army).

Those makers who acted in a professional business like manner I continued to work with. Those who did not were fired.

Lesson to collectors: Do not reward makers for their lack of organizational and business skills.

I had one maker who was 14 weeks late. One of hi s many excuses for being late was that the "fish were biting and I had to spend the next three days catching as many as I could".

After I received the knives I took 14 weeks to pay this maker. Seemed fair to me. If he could have excuses why he couldnt meet his obligations then I could have those excuses as well.

Oh he was mad, threatend me with turning me into the Guild (explained to him at that time I was not a member of the Guild). He was going to sue me. I tried to explain to him that the fish were really biting so I was gone for a week. Fourteen weeks later he received a check (by the way it was for less than $800) and a note telling him I would never do business with him again.

This forced me to put together my criteria for choosing the knife makers I would work with. As cash flow analysis is an integral part of any business plan.

A couple of things have happened with the advent of the Internet.

First, I no long have to rely on shows and a catalog as my primary way of selling knives. Consequently, delivery in time for a show is no longer impartive.

Second, I am now better able to forecast delivery times and I order more knives at once now. This allows me to longer between orders.

So for myself it is not meerly that I have more buying power. It is more being able to manage the multi-tasking I have to do on an almost daily basis.

Yes, I do seem to get a lot of knives quicker from some of the better makers. But as you now can see this is not meerly from buying power or my position in the market, or even my ability to influence a market.

It is the my organizational ablity more so than any other one thing.

Ok, your favorite maker has a two year wait.

Call them up, offer to buy 5 at once at a 10% discount.

Tell the maker you want the first one 2 years from today.

The second one 2 years, 3 months from today and so on until you have used up the 5.

Eighteen months later if you still find the makers work desireable. You place an order for another 5.

Guess what you now have a knife coming in from that maker every 3 months for the next 3 1/2 years.

Those you don't like you sell (probably at a premium in the after market, and don't forget your 10% discount).

After 10 years, two things can happen. First you can sell 15 of the knives and keep 5. Even if you only get retail price. The 5 you keep you only have 70% of the retail value in each of them. Obviously, when you go to sell these you will be rewarded 30% return on ivestment. Acutally the number is probably higher than that, because you were using that 10% made earlier to fund your next purchase. Giving you an even greater return than 10% when yousold it.

Second, you will become known as a major collector of that makers work. Consequently, you can become a dealer on a limited basis for that particular maker. This will expose you to other collectors of that makers work. Which may afford you the opportunity to pick up some rare or unusual pieces you might not have had a chance to buy before.

Lastly you will more than likely become friends with that maker. This too will add to your enjoyment of that makers knives.

If you applied this strategy to your 5 favorite makers, after the initial two year wait. You would be receiving several knives a year from your favorite makers.

I know I took a detour here. But if you look at a lenghty delivery time in a more positive light, you can put this lengthy delivery time to your advantage.

One other thing to consider. If you could get knives from these makers any time you wanted....you might not want them as badly as you do now!

Les

Jerry - Nah, I don't mind you using me as an example :) It is true for anyone who develops a good, close rapport with knifemakers to receive a little preferencial treatment in terms of accelerated delivery times. It's just a way for makers to reward their good customers for supporting them and being a repeat customer.

"Middlemen" like Les definitely have their niche in terms of shortening your wait times. Take for instance Rob Simonich. He no longer accepts any new orders from customers, and now the only way you can get one of his knives (that is, if you didn't have an order with him in the hopper) is through purveyors. Occasionally I will see Rob's stuff on Les' site, AZCK, KnifeArt, and BladeArt. And usually they are gone in a hurry. What I'm trying to get at is with makers who have long delivery times/stopped taking orders due to huge backlogs, you can usually get the knife you want just by keeping watch over the purveyors' sites and immediately jump at the chance to buy the knife you want if you see they have it in inventory.