What exactly is mokume????

Thanks

It is a Japanese word that literally means "Something that should never be put on a knife". :D

Take a look at this:
www.customknifedirectory.com/CKD_TutorialFrameset.htm (http://www.customknifedirectory.com/CKD_TutorialFrameset.htm)

Brett

In Japanese, it means "wood burl". We typically use the word mokume for what the japanese call "mokume gane", which is like damascus with non-ferrous (typically copper based) metals. Check www.mokume.com/whatis2.html (http://www.mokume.com/whatis2.html) for info and www.mokume.com/artgallery2.html (http://www.mokume.com/artgallery2.html) for exemples.

I really like it when it's well done, personally, but, like mosaic damascus, it can get really gaudy...

JD

That's an excellent site, Joss-

I think it is great to see techniques that we use in the knife community from -outside- that community. There are many artisans who focus exclusively on techniques tangential to the bladesmith. Some see these techniques as the end themselves; much as we see bladesmithing. Mokume is a great example of a technique understood one way within the knife world and entirely another outside of it.

Jonathan Loose is too gentlemanly to toot his own horn and say, "Hey, I've got a great tutorial on Mokume Gane", so I'll say it for him.

Jonathan has a great tutorial on Mokume Gane. Go to his website at www.jloose.com/ (http://www.jloose.com/), then go to the "Studio" section, and read the "Making Mokume" article/tutorial.

Les,

Do you have a scientific reason that you know of why Mokume should not be used in a knife application, or is your opinion purely artistic dislike of the material's looks, based on the way you've seen it applied personally?

I want you to clear that up, because a lot of collectors and makers listen to your opinion, however if you're not referring to material science, they need to understand that something they may own is not inferior or dangerous in some way because Les says it shouldn't be on your knife.

Assuming the material science is there in the way makers use and apply their componants, I personally like to see an artist stretch the boundaries of their creativity with the materials they incorporate in a knife design, especially high level customs.

Because the materials available in this industry are so finite, like basic colors to a painter, it seems to me that taking even one off the pallet would be really costly in the end, from an expressionist's standpoint.

I say, "let the painters paint, and let the looker's look" ... what say ye?

Alex

Hi Alex,

My disdain for mokume is based on several things. My clients rely on me to provide them with the best information I can regarding the ability of a knife to hold it's value and possibly gain in value.

It is a fact (I don't know if it is scienti fic or not) that most knives with mokume do not hold their value in the aftermarket.

Then there is the "patina" nice word for rust.
Most of what is used on custom knives is brass, which tarnishes very quickly.

The "tarnishing" is what caused most makers to go from nickel silver to stainless steel. As collectors got tired of the guards on the their custom knives turning brown and then if not cleaned turning green.

As someone who works primarily in the aftermarket, unlike makers who work in the primary market. I am the one who people come to and want to trade their
knives.

I have had people swear at me because I wouldn't take their knife in trade (note I did not sell them the knife). No matter I am the SOB trying to work
them down to get a better price.

I did have one person contact me about why I dislike Mokume so much. I explained why, but I also told him to contact John Loose. As John provided me with quite an edcuation on Mokume here.

After I answered his email he asked me where he could get some mokume and I sent him to Mike Sakmar. So much for my ability to influence:D

Alex, materials for knives (as they are for most forms of art) are finite. Although few makers use stone for handle materials. Not because it is not available. But because it is difficult to work, very unforgiving and may require some extra lapidary equipment.

Mokume is used because it is different, but also because of it's composition. As such it is easy to work and very forgiving.

My point of view always has been and always will be from the eye of the collector.

As such I feel compelled to advise anyone who asks about any aspect of custom knives. What the reality of that Maker, Style of Knife or Materials used ability to maintain their/it's value in the aftermarket.

I currently have a running battle going in another forum about knives as investments. 90% of the people say custom knives should not be looked at as investments. However, when I ask them which knives they have invested in, they never answer that question. Which can only lead me to belive that they have never invested in custom knives.

I am the oddball here. I maintain they can be investments. However, not every knife or every maker can be looked at as "investment grade".

People maintain the only reason I say custom knives can be an investment is because I sell them. Fair enough. That of course is similar to someone saying a knife maker says their knife is made from what they consider to be the best materials, that they did the best they can and they feel the knife is fairly priced....only because they are trying to sell the knife!

The reality of custom knives is that money is a finite resource. Makers have to sell their knives to continue to make more knives. Alex you have to continue to sell more band with in order to keep an ISP up and running. I have to sell knives in order to pay my salary, maintain inventory and pay all the other expenses incured when running a busines..

As such, I feel it is imperative that customers ......who are the heart and soul of custom knives. Receive the very best information they can to help them at the time of their purchase.

Alex, I am the only custom knife dealer I know of that will take a knife back in trade and give you 100% of what you paid for it in trade towards another knife.

I won't go into the reasons why other dealers don't, as it is fairly obvious.

I don't meerly expound for or against a knife, maker or material because I just picked up three at a show or had 4 delivered. The makers I work with stays fairly consistent. I try to find 2 or 3 a year that meet my clients criteria for making knives.

Just as customers should buy what they like. Makers should make what they want to make. As you say "Let the painters paint".

I make the statements I do, so that when it comes time for the collector to sell or trade in his "painting". I am only brought the masterpieces.

I know what it's like to have:

Bought a "dog" (several of the actually). Finding out several months later that I am the only person in the world that likes this dog. So in order to get rid of it I have to basically "give it away"

Overpaid for a knife. Becasuse I didn't do my homework I bought a knife that I thought was one model from a maker and it turned out to be another.

Overpaid for a knife because of the level (or lack their of) in regards to quality.

Bought a knife because it was trendy, a fad, etc. Only to find out that 6 months later the fad was over. Why didn't the person selling that knife tell me the fad would be over soon.

I acutally did run into someone like that...Paul Basch.

Paul took the time to explain the good and bad of every knife I looked at. Once he gave me all the information he could, then I made the decision. Good, bad or indifferent I was ok with my purchase as I felt I understood all aspects of the knife.

It was his understanding of the "totality of the market" that helped shape me both as a collector and a dealer.

Again, nothing wrong with "letting them paint" but if you are going to paint, why not use the best materials you can. At the same time understand that some paintings will be better than others. Some will hold up better in the aftermarket better than others.

The better we take care of the collectors, the more information we provide them, the better the decision they can make.

Can you imagine what would happen to the custom knife market if it was found out that most of the knives sold hold their value with a large percentage of them going up in price! WOW.

More people would start buying custom knives. Makers would be able to get more money. This would lead to makers being able to buy better equipment, buy new equpiment (such as lapidary) equipment. There by increasing their ability to enter into and compete in other markets...thereby making more money. Well you see the pattern.

You know the reason this will never happen?? Because my view of knives as investment is only shared by very few.

So guys buy what you like. But when you buy from a dealer or maker who won't take back that incredible painting they sold you. Don't come to me and expect me to take it.

After all, if they won't stand behind their work or the makers they represent.....why should I.

Maybe that is the main problem. Over the years I have just grown tired of people getting upset with me when I won't take their knives in trade.

Remember when I was telling everyone that Chris Reeve knives were not custom knives. I got burned all over the Internet......until the Sebenza won "Best Manufacture Knife of the Year" at the Blade Show in 2000. Then I was asked....how did you know?

Then there was the battle of the Randall. This to now seems to have been put to rest.

Alex, this is what you, collectors and makers don't see. The thousands of people every year who make a "mistake" and then expect the dealers to make it right.

Alex, I do understand that people do take to heart many of the things I say and write. This is why I take my market research very seriously. This is why I offer the trade in policy I do. This is why I take in very few consignment knives. I buy well over 95% of the knives I sell each year.

I know a lot of people have taken to heart my telling them how to check if a makers is right handed, left handed or ambidextrous. I also know that collectors with this knowledge have passed on buying some knives they would have bought, had they not known this.

By expressing my views here, at knife shows, during seminars and in my book. I have made custom knives a much more enjoyable place for me and probably a few other dealers to work in. As no one (unless they are joking) brings me a knife with Mokume, Jigged Bone, Giraffe Bone or Wild Wood.

Alex, I do agree with you 100% that makes should stretch their artistic wings. They should look at the utilization of every material and technique that is available.

It is just as important that there are those customers who buy purely for the thrill or artistic demeanor of a particular knife and pay no attention to what I say.

However, for over 80% of the collectors out there who collect custom knives for 5 or more years. There will come a time when they want to "move" a piece or two to fund a new knife. It is at that precise moment they have shifted from being a collector only to a collector/investor.

As now they are interested/concerned as to just how much money they will get for that knife they swore they would never sell! Most expect a 20-25% loss. However, can you imagine the irritiation when you are offered only 30-50% of the knife original value.
The majority of collectors generally do not blame themselves for this purchase.....instead they like to "project" their feelings of ill will to the person who is offering to buy the knife.

As usual that was way more than anyone was looking for.

Hope this explains my point of view Alex.

Les,

I completely understand that you are reflecting and responding to market perceptions in the context of the knife dealer- and that your decision is based on market perceptions. My response is in no way personal or meant to be inflammatory! :)

I just want to reiterate that there are many types of Mokume Gane. Some of these will 'patina,' unintentionally and some are patinated completely intentionally; either by application of chemicals and / or heat or by exposure over time to the natural elements. Some will not patina at all. The differences lie in the alloys used to make the material.

Much as one polishes silver or maintains a rifle, one oils a blade. I find it strange that the same market perceives the need to maintain the blade but not to maintain any of the fittings... should they require it.

If the knife market devalues Mokume Gane as a whole due to the physical reasons you've presented then it is due to the market misunderstanding the capabilities and traditions of the material. If it is due to changing market aesthetics or fashion then that is another matter entirely...

Coming from the academically educated art-jeweler's realm I find some of the knife community's preferences odd: Mokume Gane on a $2000.00 piece of jewelry does not lose any inherent value if it patinates- this is seen as a natural process intended by the artist and dictated by the medium or simply something that requires maintenance. But then customers of high end art-jewelry tend to be very educated about non-ferrous metalsmithing techniques and traditions- much as knife enthusiasts know volumes about the fine points of steels.

I was recently in the Smithsonian's Renwick Gallery of American Craft in Washington D.C. Imagine my surprise to find not a single knife in the collection... what could be a more quintessential item of American craft than the Bowie? Why are we overlooked by so many of the academic and artistic realms ( and markets ) we touch bases with?

From my perspective the knife world is an enigma; obviously high-craft but operating in great isolation from the realms of sculpture, jewelry and blacksmithing. It is refreshing and irksome at the same time. The artist metalsmiths' community often dismisses knives as '...too utilitarian,' to be considered fine craft ( explain to me how architecture fails to fit this category...) and the knife world often dismisses it's relevance to the forefront of art, design and technique.

A mere two years ago I embarked on a full-time, life-long dedication to the craft of the blade... although a metalsmith / jeweler for over ten years much of that time has been spent working for others... I have only just begun -my- artistic career. I fully plan on making it a point to further the education of the knife audience in the broader materials and techniques that have historically been used in conjunction with the blade... and possibly some that are new.

It can only increase the recognition and the market for all of us...

I would comment that the much-discussed patina is often considered desirable, rather than something to be removed or polished.

I am waiting (somewhat impatiently) for the patina to develop on the mokume bolsters of a recently completed knife so the pattern will show up well enough to allow me to photograph it. In this instance, the more "tarnish" the better.

Despite Les' experience with the aftermarket value of mokume, I have many, many customers who absolutely insist on it. Since these folks are *my* market, I am happy to oblige them.

Hi John,

I know you are the Mokume Man that is why I gave the individual your name!

Hi Don,

You are exactly right, make what your customers want....that is why they are called custom knives.

Well, I'm not quite -the- Mokume Man... ;)

I'm still admiring the work on www.mokume.com

...But there's a whole career ahead of me and a myriad of interesting techniques out there. Mokume is one I will certainly pursue.

Thanks for the reference though, Les; I appreciate it.

Don- you are absolutely right that traditionally speaking, Mokume Gane is left with a fine pumiced finish to induce patination.

Les- I wish I could see the offending patina you refer to in order to see if it is the 'right,' kind or the result of too many low-grade non-ferrous alloys and poor care. Impure brass / copper / nickel silver and / or poor maintenance could really be the culprits here...

Jonathan,

Steve Midgett is one of the best mokume specialists in the US. His book - Mokume Gane - is an absolute must have for any craftman interested in making mokume. You can get it off his site or off Amazon:
www.amazon.com/exec/obido...0965165078 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0965165078)

Cheers,

JD

Joss-

I just revently came across Steve Midgett's Mokume kiln. He makes this with two soft ceramic bricks and a C-clamp to put the Mokume under pressure. You can use a large size torch to heat things up with it. I couldn't find it on his site, but discovered it in a new Hoover & Strong catalog. ( Very excellent precious metal suppliers, btw ) I had been meaning to look him up since I saw that kiln set up but hadn't done so 'till you posted the link.

You can bet I'm getting the book and possibly the video as well...

( Hey, thanks for that bid the other day as well ;) )

I dread and fear the day that knives become ART INVESTMENTS. It would mean the total death of the knife as a tool and implement.

If for some unimaginable reason, someone wants to INVEST in a knife, great, go for it. I, on the otherhand, will continue to love the tool caled knife.

As long as it's not a safety issue with the material, I think the debate is really one of perspective. Because Les stated it the way he did initially, it raised a question in me that made me want to clear that up for those who might have taken that as a safety issue.

All knife buyers deserve to own something that is substantial, that performs and is safe to use within reason.

Aspects of expression, such as patina effect, or cutting edge non-patina"ing" mokume alloys (materials that much of the market may not be familiar with yet), are part of this industry ...and some of the many options that you have before you. What everyone likes and dislikes is personal in nature, it's purely subjective. That's why this industry offers the consumer so much variation, like art does, it's about experimentation.

Men ...
Make what "you" like, what expresses "your" creativity the best ... the industry and future markets will follow "you" ... you are the origin of the product! The "trend" is only the tail of the animal ... and it does not wag the dog! Understand?

Now go for it ... push the envelope ... we follow you, not the other way around! Remember that!

Alex

Guys,

Les' comments - if I got them right - refer mostly to the tendancy of mokume to, well, rust. FWIW, mokume is a technique, not a material. There are at least 2 ways I can think off to prevent mokume from rusting green. One is to use gold-based alloys, such as shakudo. I don't think it rusts (althoug there's at least 90% copper... so don't take my word for it.) Another technique is to artificially patinate the piece to impart a rust resisting finish. There are finishes that turn shakudo in a blueish / eggplantish / black, which is plain stunning, esp. when used in combination with gold. Old japanese had weird recipes for patina's, such as burrowing an object in a dead animal's corpse, or a box of saw dust saturated with urine. People will not be surprised to hear that the modern equivalent often have ammonia as one of their component.

From an esthetic point of view, I think that mokume is not yet mastered among knifemakers like it is in jewelry. Even there, it's pretty rare. There's a lot of mokume on knives that is still pretty coarse, maybe not unlike the early days of damascus? For what it's worth, mokume is much more delicate to make than damascus, for a variety of reason.

Jonathan, the book goes into the details about the fabrication of that kiln. My feeling is that it is most approriate for very small pieces - bolsters, etc. Depending on the equipment you have (full size kiln), there are methods to make bigger pieces user lower temp and longer times. Me and my buddies have had limited success doing mokume this way (2 copper X silver billets melt down, resulting in 2 lumps of super rich Shibuichi...), but I still think it's the way to go for cutlery - to make entire guards, etc. When you get the book, make sure you check the realizations at the end, esp. the work of Mr. Walker, who uses the lowly brass, bronze, copper, and Ni S - amazing colors.

As to the bid, you're welcome. Maybe it helped jumpstart the auction!

Cheers,

JD

Hi Jar,

First, I think if you were to ask John and Don if they consider their work "art" you would find out they do.

Perhaps the "art" knives you are speaking of are the very expensive ones. At what price range does a knife become an art knife?

Do you only consider the materials being used when you call a knife an art knife?

Is price your number one criteria?

What materials do you prefer on you "tools".

What is the most expensive "Tool" that you have bought and who made it?

I have some other thoughts on this, but I thought I would get some more information from Jar.

One of the best things about custom knives is their diversity and the diversity of opinions of those who own, make, use and collect them.

I think thatthe ART part is independant of price. The relationship of price is, of course, related to intricacies and materials. It's a result though and not a feature.

I would agree that Jonathans knives, most of the ones I've seen, are ART. And that is where I belive that I differ from some other collectors or accumulators.

David Brodziak is one of my favorite makers. But many of the things that he makes, I simply wouldn't buy. They have lost their functionality because they are built in a manner that hard use would destroy there aesthetics as ART.

Consider this one.

http://www.omninet.net.au/~brodziak/collectors/collectorsimages/c1-2soa.jpg

Would this still be ART after several camping trips and after I've used it to chop the firewood, open a can of beans and clear the brush leading to the stand? It wouldn't be much good for skinning and if I used it as the tactical knife it is, I doubt it would be still considered ART.

Then there is this knife. It's still functional. It has served me well. And I think it's more beautiful today with all its scrapes and with the black worn off the edges, than it was when brand new. It's a tool. That's all. A tool to be used and enjoyed. I still sit and open and close it while reading or watching tv. I run my finger along the flat of the blade simply to enjoy the aesthetics, the tactile responses, that I get from the Damascus.

http://www.fototime.com/C62037C6B5180D7/standard.jpg

Is it ART? Well, I get joy from looking at it, pleasure from feeling it, and a satisfaction from the interplay between the various parts and functions, so I guess that it's art. It isn't ART though, simply art. Is it a tool? Most definitely and it was bought as that.

And that is where I took exception to your tirade about knives as investments. When the emphasis moves from the point of view of knife as tool to knife as ART, functionality goes out the window. I have no problem when an Artist uses the form Knife as an expression of his or her ART. But the knife is only the canvas. If I wiped all knowledge of knives from Jonathan, he would still produce ART. He might make jewelry, Mosaic tiles, paintings or enamel works, statues or armour. He's an artist and if I should by one of his works, I'm buying a Jonathan not a knife.

To say that Mokume is something that should never be put on a knife is simply silly. I have knives with wood handles, ones with Sterling Silver, some with Copper and Bronze. All of these require reasonable maintenance to retain their looks. But that is all, just take care of it in a way that is resonable and responable.

Mokume is no different.

ART as an investment is a great option for many. To say that knives should exist for their value as an investment and that buyers should always consider the investment potential of what they buy is just plain silly. If I took that point of view, the point of view that you say is the correct one, I would not have purchase any of the hundreds of knives that I own. Then where would those knifemakers and their families be?

http://www.fototime.com/5056205065A0881/standard.jpg

That's a good question ...

"When does a knife become Art?"
"Perhaps, when it's value as a "tool" is exceeded by any other aesthetic, intrinsic or expressive values it may possess."

It's "tool" value is a finite measure of it's total intrinsic value, I would think. This is not defined by the price, as price is only a measure of it's group perception or market value. If price or material was a measure, then anything costing over a certain amount of money, or made of universally valuable materials, would have to be considered as art, yet they are not.

Alex

Ahhh...

[ Wringing Hands ]

Now we're straying into some serious discussions!

'Art vs Craft,' is the stuff of fisticuffs in Art Academia.

Like I said, the Knife world is an enigma... those who have come at it from the ground up may not realize it. We rarely get caught up in the issues of Art or Not Art. The interesting thing is that the knife market is -much- more open minded when it comes to the issue of defining Art.

In the Artist Metalsmiths' world the subject gets a much more critical eye. Unfortunately, 'Art,' say, in the context of the Society of North American Goldsmiths ( the premiere artist/academic Metalsmithing Org... very interesting depite my grievances...) often means '...it can't be functional,' or it has to '...play with issues of functionality'. I think this comes from a history of painters and sculptors criticizing 'lesser Arts,' by stating that working within the constraints of 'function,' negates the artists' ability to retain freedom of expression.

I say 'Pah!' The origins of Art are functional. Cave paintings are hunting Ju-Ju... and if one truly believes in Ju-Ju as a concrete aspect of one's universe it is absolutely functional. The recently discovered oldest tools in the world in South Africa are bone knives polished beyond the need for function. They were made to be -beautiful- within the constraints of the medium and material.

I think the desire to be expressive dictates whether something is Art or Not... and let's not forget that some Art is good and some Art is bad... and that this distinction is just short of completely subjective.

My definition of an 'Art Knife,' is one that seeks to express something -beyond- function and beyond issues of form and composition. There is no derision in my book for the object of Craft... just as there is good Art and bad Art, there is good Craft and bad Craft. Good Craft is better than bad Art, that's for sure! Art made without a solid basis in Craftsmanship lacks integrity in my book. This is one reason why it I find it hard to find good Art in any medium these days... few aspiring Artists want to spend the time perfecting their medium. I would argue that although I do consider myself an Artist, most of my work to date is Craft; barely pushing boudaries of Art if you know a lot about the Dark Ages ;) I am mostly focusing on honing my technical skills right now... like a young poet studying English.

Now... how does this tie into the discussion of the Market? Speculating on values? Some knives will hold their value because the maker chose to expressly focus on making the absolutely best functioning blade for a given criteria and sacrificed elements of aesthetic design to do so. Art? I'd say Craft; the value is primarily grounded in how well the material was understood and utilized... the value is primarily tangible.

How about the maker who makes a knife whose value has almost -nothing- to do with its cutting ability? I've considered making this piece in the near future... a jeweled box-cutter decorated in a Persian style entitled 'Weapon of Mass Destruction.' The value certainly won't be in the function, although on principle I will make it the best #### box-cutter I can. Would its functional ability be surpassed by the standard commercial model? Does it matter?

The value is primarily intangible... and it may or may not be reflected by the marketplace.

Many famous Artists died poor...

Jar,

I think you may be confused. My perspective is not that knives should only be considered that have investment potential.

My perspective is that knives can be an investment. There is a big difference.

Jonathan-

Bravo!

Alex

John,

That is a fact. Many artists did die poor. However, Im sure that was not their intention.

:D

...Nor is it mine. ;)

Well ... where are we at on the Mokume debate?

Les, are you saying that no man could make a knife with mokume on it that you'd buy for resale? Or, is there a challange opportunity here for a very creative and gifted sort to breach?

The point being ... how do we move this debate toward something constructive, something life changing for all?

Or, like most of these topics, does it die here? ...everyone having chimed in with their position, only to lead us yet again down the path to nowhere, or no positive movement?

Tell everyone what ... forget that, I'll step up!
Show me a knife with mokume in it that I really like, and I'll buy it today!

Alex

Hi Alex,

Truth be told I have owned a couple of knives with mokume bolster. Now before everyone gets excited, I received both of them in trades.

John has shown me that there are different types of Mokume. I like the idea of bronze and copper for fittings. However, I am one of those people that does not like patina.

Alex, we both understand that the people who contribute here are for the most part, into custom knives. They have had more exposure than the average or new knife buyer.

It is the makers job to educate collectors to the techniques of building a knife. To deal in the Primary market.

It is my job to educate people to the realities of what their decision(s) will mean in the aftermarket.

Mokume is one of those materials that does not do well in the aftermarket. This does not mean that there is not some beautiful knives out there with mokume on them.

As John pointed out, many artist have died poor. The reality of custom knives is that you have to make money to pay the bills.

This is where "product mix" (which knives you make, which materials you use and how many you make of each) to represent yourself and your knives.

Let me state this up front...I have no mechanical ability. Ask my wife she will vouch for me on this.

I have people ask me all the time, why don't you make knives? Two reasons.

First, I would suck at it
Second, the world does not need one more lousy knife maker.
So when I am taking aim at a material to be used on a knife. It is not necessairly me....it is 10's of thousands of customers telling me they do not like it.

Here is an example. Most people either love or hate Abalone as a handle material. Does this mean you should never use it? No.

It does mean in the scheme of the product mix.

Use Black Lip Pearl (if you can find it) 40 % of the time.

Gold LIp 30% of the time

Mother of Pearl 20% of the time (only because it is currently being used to death)

Abalone 10% of the time.

The reality of the market is that you have to make as a rule knives that about 80% of the market will at least be interested in.

That is unless you are going to create a market and hunker down, stay there and own it!

Examples, Virgil England and Dan Winkler. Both exceptional artists and makers. Spent years and years selling very little. But now they are the top in each of their market. They have developed a serious clientel. But even amoung their knives they have incorporated "product mix".

So use whatever materials you like, just figure out what the market is for each. More importantly what percentage of the materials you want to use make up in that market.

Example:

A maker could put stainless steel bolsters on a tactical folder. Understanding that it is a strong material, wont rust and can be given a number of finishes. However, for most tactical knife buyers this will be unacceptable.

That being said, Scott Sawby does that on each of his knives (mostly due to the lock mechanism he uses). His tactical knives are in demand and sell very well. However, Scott's tactical knives are not his main line of knives.

I have alluded to Mike Sakmar earlier in this thread. He makes a lot of mokume. He sells it at shows along with his knives. Oddly enough (and I only see him twice a year at shows) only about 20% of his knives have mokume on them.

Mike understands product mix. His goal is not to become the King of Mokume knives.

Alex you asked me if there is no knife with mokume that I will buy. The answer is at this point I cannot think of a knife with mokume that I would buy.

As a dealer I have to let the makers create and "own" the niche markets. The market ladder in many of these niche's have only 2 or 3 rungs.

So if you are on one of those rungs you may do very well. The problem is on a ladder that small it is no easy task to move onto the ladder let alone up to one of the top rungs.

I was around in the early 90's when custom knives almost went belly up. This was due primarily to only one or two styles of knives having everyone's attention (the interfame folder comes to mind).

This knife took such a tumble (for various) reasons that many of the high dollar collectors left and never returned to custom knives.

It was almost as if custom knives had to start over again. The 80's and early 90's took art knives to the top of the heap. Thousands were being spent on individual knives. I was routinely selling multi-thousand dollar fixed blades (no folders at the time).

Then as if they were dinosaurs...they were gone and no one was really sure why.

One of the reasons was because dealers just kept jacking up the prices and talking custom knife buyers into buying these expensive knives. Then when the bottom fell out, the dealers were no where to be found. Except to offer you 20 cents on the dollar.

Most of these dealers are gone now, some remain.

So when I see things like mokume and "wild woods" I think back 10 years ago when the bottom was falling out. I hear the hype and read the articles.

But the truth be told, those who sell those knives....will not take them back in trade.

Alex, there in lies the true crux of the matter. If there was a demand for it, they would.

So I love to watch the painters paint. As they are the ones who start the trends, many times without even knowing it.

What is anything truly worth??? What someone will pay you for it.

What makes someone want to pay a knife maker more than their material costs. Because someone has convinced them that it is worth more than that.

That my friends is marketing and sales!

Alex, there is a reason that so many great artists have died broke.

Les,

Respectfully,

I think I'd like to try and explain why this issue seems to stir up a hornet's nest every time it comes up in this particular context. Les, you are not merely a reflection of the marketplace; I was being polite. You also -affect- the marketplace. A lot of people listen to you as you well know. If you say something is '...up and coming,' you have likely increased the odds of it becoming so.

In a similar fashion, if you state that '...Mokume is Japanese for something that should never be put on a knife,' you have caused a large part of the Knifemakers' potential audience to wonder why. So far, the only apparent reason the 'aftermarket,' seems to reject this venerable technique is that it fails to understand its subtleties. You reinforce these misunderstandings with your statements when you are plainly in a position to help clarify them.

I'm going to suggest that you will only earn greater goodwill from everyone in the knife community by educating yourself to become more discerning when it comes to this technique, rather than rejecting it outright. You may even increase your own market in the process.

I would like to offer the following in genuine trust that we might all further the Craft of the Artist-Bladesmith:

1. This technique has been untilized for hundreds of years on fully functional knives and swords. It was invented by Japanese Bladesmiths for this purpose. They are a culture inclined to perfection in all aspects of life.

2. Some patinas occur naturally on certain alloys, particularly those that are copper and heavily copper-based. Some patinas, as Joss pointed out, are actually finishes that prevent further oxidation.

3. Some combinations of Mokume will never patina. An 18k yellow, rose and green gold Mokume Gane will always be worth its weight in gold, my friend; and never a penny less. Possibly more!

4. (Subjective) Mokume Gane is a technique capable of infinite visual and working characteristics. As a technique it can be executed well or poorly. It requires some education to appreciate; much like Damascus. I remember reading Knives Illustrated in High School and watching the market perception of Damascus unfold. It looked like a group effort.

While they may be current market (mis)conceptions there is no basis for perpetuating the falsehoods that '...all Mokume will rust, (sic)" or that a patina is always undesireable. We can all become better educated and discerning enough to inform our customers whether or not the technique has been executed well. An all-green piece of Mokume Gane has not been made well or has been mistreated... much like a rusty blade has been abused.

I see you sell carbon steel blades...

_______________________

I also think a parable is in order. There are those who say that the true experience of Art creates an epiphany of sorts. The experience of something genuine and beautiful reminds us of what is truly important in life. Good Art gives us that experience; commercial art seeks to replicate it cheaply- and in its cheapness leaves us hungering for more lest we catch on to the ruse.

In the 1980's, the growing economy gave way to corporate excess. Many companies began buying as much new Art as they could, always looking for the best 'investment'. The Art-world quickly degenerated into a morass of trends, fads and speculation. Soon the bubble burst and many collections lost their value. Corporate Art collections from the 80's suck.

Contrast this with Art of the Rennaissance... how many people know that Michelangelo was an accomplished Metalsmith? Almost all the great Masters were... it was considered part of a classical education. The dominant model of the Art marketplace was one of patrons who bought work and supported Artists because doing so brought them pleasure, prestige and satisfaction. The Rennaissance is called so for a reason.

Now I understand the need for middlemen in the contemporary world. You are half like a gallery owner... you will buy work and promote the artist. But you are also half like a critic... and there is a history in the Art world of encouraging critics to make bad reviews of the work in a competing gallery.

I would not accuse you of this, Les, but merely inform you of your power.

With absolute certainty, we can defend Les as a positive advocate for the knife industry. I think we all agree with that ... and, this is only one issue, albeit opposed to my own personal position which stirs my interest in it to begin with.

That having been said ...

Les' original comment was, realized or not, a conditioned response based on his past experience with the material, not based on anything new or improved. He stated this in his defense of having said it. Understanding that he makes no claims to be advocating his position from a scientific level, only post market demand based, we see a valuable point that needs to be understood here:

"When you begin a new knife, you have a choice to consider every time. That is, do I build something that I know to be acceptable to others, or do I build what is acceptable to me, risking for the reward that my understanding is greater?" (if you're building to sell something to a dealer, look at what they deal in and build on that basis ... am I right?)

Considering this, the risks involved with working against built-in public acceptance are real. In fact, as in this case, you may even be undermined in your effort by the perceived authorities opposing views, whether based in fact or not, if you're going outside the lines.

What I think ...
People will only hear in passing what they already believe. That's why I maintain that the secret to failure begins in assumption. I instantly saw the potential of Les's comment in the outset of this thread to have a casual misleading effect. Not that making his point in a humorous and passing way was to be interpreted as more than that, highlighting his personal position only, but the potential effect it could have on our quiet majority of viewers, especially collectors considering mokume who may have less understanding of the material than needed to stay current, I wanted to draw the debate lines and get it out in the open.

No, this is not the 80's or 90's anymore ... you can't condemn a man for using what he knows either, as experience is the wisest teacher, also a Japanese understanding. However, the world spins at a faster rate today than anyone has experience to fully comprehend. Information holds more power today than ever in history. That's why we have to be very concerned, especially in my position, to make sure that things are not stated in ways that can have rapid, adverse effects on this industry and market, notably when emanating from authorities, as this exponentializes it's spread.

I'm not here to take a position on the information, only to guide the flow to the result that best serves this industry's future, from my point of contact. Yesterday, I have no interest in ... "tomorrow" is my focus point.

We are all doing a good job together as a community. The custom knife industry is strong, it's growing and demands and prices are stable and climbing. As it's stewards, this is our most important mission ... to keep it solid and growing. If the CKD is to ever become anything in this industry, it will do so because we make it so. It is a reflection of the industry, hopefully to become it's best some day, but as an industry, we are all tied to the same conduit, we all must drink from the same well ... contamination will hurt us all, equally. Misinformation is a contaminant ...

Let's give Les credit for impacting this industry unlike few before him. Les is without question a positive factor in the industry, and we are all benefactors of his previous and ongoing groundwork.

Les ... you've made a coin phrase your mantra in the custom knife business ... "Do your homework!" ... That's awesome advice!

Did you contact Amazon about "Modern Mokume" today? :lol:

Alex

The end.

Hi John,

I realize that my comments can irritate makers and collectors a like. Alex asked if there was a scientific reason as for my dislike of Mokume. Well it wasn't scientific, it was however based on business.

Again, I know among many who consider themselves artists that business can be a bad word. You want to be able to create what you want and do how you want to do it.

If you are in a postion that your art is not resonsible for paying your bills then the business aspect may not e "When you begin a new knife, you have a choice to consider every time. That is, do I build something that I know to be acceptable to others, or do I build what is acceptable to me, risking for the reward that my understanding is greater?" (if you're building to sell something to a dealer, look at what they deal in and build on that basis ... am I right?)
ve come into play.

Much like the collectors who buy what they like with no regard to trends, fads or re-couping any or all portions of money spent on these knives. These may be the most important people in custom knives.. As they buy soley on appearance. That is to say, the apperance of the knife is the main reason they buy the knife.

John, I understand that I have some influence in the custom knife community. This is not by accident. Much like the world class makers who have spent years perfecting their craft. I have done the same thing.

It is obvious that I have an agenda and it's not very well hidden. The odd thing is that it coincides with what you and every other artist in custom knives wants.

I used to attend some large gun shows. Years ago I went to the NRA"s first gun show in Nashville TN. A guy walked up to me with a Holland & Holland side by side 12 gauge shot gun broke open and being carried over his shoulder. The gun was incredible and had several thousand dollars worth of engraving. This Shotgun sold for $32,000.00! You may wonder how I know this.

Well this individual walked up to my table and picked up a $300 knife. He then in a loud and booming voice said "What kind of F*****G Moron would pay $300 for a knife.

I then asked him about his shotgun, he then proceded to give me all the details and I asked him how much it cost. Again in a loud and booming voice (so others could hear) he said "$32,000.00".

I looked at him and said you know you could have just went to Wal-Mart and bought a Remington 870 for around $270.

I then said, "I guess the "F*****G Moron who would pay $300 for a custom knife is the smarter version of the F*****G Moron who would spend $32,000 on a 12 gauge shotgun.

He stood there with his mouth open. I then explained to them that in both cases neither were moron's. They were in fact people who demanded quality and understood that you have to pay for this quality.

He smiled at me and said "That makes sense". Yes, I did sell him a knife, a $1,200 folder.

The reason this guy was willing to spend $32,000 on a Holland & Holland Shotgun was because of their reputation. But also the fact that these shotguns hold their value and even increase in value. These gun owners view these as an investment.

This is why I started my "Trade In Policy". You don't meerly buy a knife from Les Robertson...you invest in a knife that you get from me.

Those who buy from me are investing in not only the knife. They are investing in my knowledge of the subject matter.

John, this is why it is important to me that I tell the truth...at least as it appears to me. Just as with certain materials, there are reasons I don't represent certain makers. Yes, I could sell their knives and make money. However, I think long term...not short term.

The 80's and 90's do play an important role in todays knife makret. Just as the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's do. It is all interconnected.

There is a renissance going on right now in custom knives. I just happens to be in the tactical market...right now.

John, question for you. Why do you think the tactical market has dominated custom knife sales for the last 7 years?

If you talk with the people who set up at the East Coast Custom Knife Show they will tell you that the high dollar $1,000 and above sales were way off of last years show. My buddy Bob Neals show was off about 85% from last year. Mine was up 25% from last year. The reason was simple ...product mix.

No, I didn't sell only tactical knives. I sold 3 knives over $1,000 and 1 over $2,000. I also sold 3 knives that were in the $250 - $300 range.

Fortunately a friend of mine (who started out as a client) got me on the phone one night and verbally kicked me in the ass for concentrating on only the tactical market.

I then started doing homework on Hunters and Damascus folders. About a year ago I started looking into the ABS makers again.

Yes, the make carbon steel blades that do require some extra maintenance. However, they have a school and an orgainzation that educates their collectors on not only maintenace of these knives, but on how they are made.

John, education of the marekt cannot be overlooked as an important factor in making a style of knife, material or even a maker desireable.

If you would like to see mokume become more main stream then it is up to you to educate the buying public. Write an article for one of the magazines. Send out a e-newsletter, have Alex give you your own forum to discuss mokume, etc.

My opinon carries the weight it does because I believe in what I tell people, what I sell and the makers I work with. Also, I have been doing this for 16 years.

I am sought after for interviews and seminars because of my proven track record.

I want knives to be viewed as investments. This will hopefully make people consider their purchases more carefully. By doing so, they will in turn force the makers to better work, but in turn will reward those who do deliver a quality product with more money per knife.

As these knives become viewed as investments, collectors will want to emblish their knives (much like the Holland & Holland Shotgun). This will open the door for more engravers and scrimshanders. Also, sheath makers and those who make presentation cases, etc. Talk about a renissance for craftsmen.

So John, we have the same goal. We are just coming at it from different sides.

I tell people something is a bad investment until such time as it becomes a good investment. Just as things that are viewed as good investments can become bad ones.

It is the cycle of the market. Tastes change and art that was once to "hot to hold" is now cold to the touch as the latest and greatest is now center stage.

You have seen this happen on the internet forums. Makers were so hot they couldn't handle half the work they were getting and now they operate in relative obscurity. This happened in a relative short period of time.

Those who got all excited in the "flavor of the month" now own a knife that they will be lucky to get half their money back on.

John, several of these makers I told my clients not to buy. Instead they bought knives from new makers like Geno Denning, Trace Rinaldi and John Fisk.

Well once again I have kind of veered off track.

John, I understand I have some influence in the custom knife market. However, you or anyone else can have the same influence.

Alex,

Excellent advice:

"When you begin a new knife, you have a choice to consider every time. That is, do I build something that I know to be acceptable to others, or do I build what is acceptable to me, risking for the reward that my understanding is greater?" (if you're building to sell something to a dealer, look at what they deal in and build on that basis ... am I right?)"

For knife makers that is it in a nutshell. For a maker there is room for both types of knives to be made.

Using my Vanguard knives as an example. Each of these knives is made with the customer in mind. These knives have features that the customers have told me they would like to see in a knife.

My job is to then get the information to the maker (in a usable form), get the maker to build the knives and then provide them to my clients and to back these knives 100% with both word and deed.

Alex, I too am concerned about tomorrow. However, I understand that the tomorrow's success's are started today, with information we have received in the past.

My kids always ask me why I watch the "History" channel. My response to them is, so I don't make the same mistakes that someone already else has.

Les,

Thanks for the thoughtful response... I am beginning to think we may actually get somewhere with this thread. I can tell you I'm glad this came up while I am recouperating a bad back sprain and not trying to work in the studio!

It is indeed true that the main goals of the dealer and the maker coincide. They appear to diverge somewhat where the aftermarket leaves the primary market. I suspect that oftentimes when you make statements concerning '...the market,' the general audience fails to realize you mean -the aftermarket-. Not that they aren't linked; but there are two reasons people buy fine Art / Craft: as an investment and as an heirloom.

An investment is something of value you will one day sell. An heirloom is something of value you would rather pass on to your children. It is the harder route of business and will take me many more years of hard work to get there- but I would rather be remembered by the heirlooms I have left in this world.

When knives are viewed exclusively as investments the Artist is very tempted to cater exclusively to the market- and the integrity of the work is compromised. When Artists are viewed as investments that is less likely to happen. I agree that getting the market to understand potential investment value supports us all. I just think that a good investment isn't always returned in cold cash.

On the subject of diversification and the market I completely agree... a full-time maker has to find balance that works within the confines of the market. I try to find the smallest compromises in how I address market perceptions with which I disagree. And as you point out, we can influence the market in the same manner that you do... which hopefully I am doing now. ;)

It is funny that Mokume Gane has triggered this entire debate- although it is one technique I have been wanting to explore it was somewhat on the back burner for a later phase of my career. I objected to your original comment not because I wanted to be the Mokume Man :) or even specialize in it. I objected because I saw a misunderstanding creating misperceptions that could make it very difficult for this technique to progress in the knife market beyond a limited stage. It was more the principle of the thing.

It looks like I am going to have to put my money where my mouth is though, and show off some tasteful Mokume Gane that won't tarnish. I will work on the patination issues later!

Funny... I have a commission for a boot knife with gold Mokume... I'll post it when I'm done and then we can debate whether or not it is ugly...

:)

_________________

In response to your question I'll postulate on the tactical market, for what it is worth. I'm sure you're aware that it isn't a direction I am personally focused on... but I watch it like all of us do and certainly find it a valid and intriguing aspect of knifemaking. My work certainly benefits when someone else refines, say, a heat-treating technique and passes that information along.

It's kind of a funny market in that I often wonder how many people who buy them actually use them as they are intended... I'm sure a limited number do. But there must be some other reason why they get bought. I think there is an excitement; a rush; something about knowing you have something -designed- to kill. I guess that's why I like swords... I just like to add an historical angle.

Beyond that I'd say it is an easy market for the general public to appreciate- there is always a new and ever so slightly better steel, heat-treatment or grip material. You can often objectively say that a new knife is more advanced than the last one given the tactical market's established criteria. The tactical market appreciates this evolution and it is indeed interesting to observe. It also keeps customers coming back for more.

I can see how from a maker's perspective that would be an exciting chase! You aren't going to get bored at work...

That is also my attraction to working with the decorative aspects of the Blade... there is always a new technique, aesthetic and artistic statement to explore.

BTW ... Jonathan, those drinking horns on your site are masterful!

Alex

Personally, I like Mokume, and I think that well done it can only add to the objective value of a knife, if there's such a thing. Subjectively, though, I would trust Les: if he says Mokume isn't in demand in the 2nd hand market, I'd tend to trust him. It doesn't mean I won't buy a knife w/ Mokume, but I'd do so knowing I'm taking a risk reg. the resale value.

I also agree with Jonathan: this is mostly because (1) customers are not educated, and (2) makers have not yet developed the kind of knowledge / ability as they have with Damascus. Early on, many damascus blades were rather ugly looking. Little by little, the right material selection, manipulation, and post forging treatment (etch) were developed, via classes, informal learning, articles, etc. Some people assumed leadership in helping this, such as Bill Moran, Daryl Meier, etc.

I feel this is the same thing for Mokume. In the best of cases, Mokume will never reach the importance in the knife world that damascus has, but it has clear upside potential. However, that requires some leaders, to teach and preach, develop techniques, patterns, finishes, and educate both the knife makers and the customers. For example, why isn't there a mokume making class at the Texarcana college? Or more mokume making demonstrations at hammer ins? Those would contribute to the evangelization of the technique.

I am optimistic this will happen at some point or another in the near future, and that shortly thereafter the public will change their POV on the material. I dont know yet who the leaders will be, but I'd tend to believe they will be in the makers' community, not the sellers. It would be suicidal for Les to advocate the use of a technique which he feels the public is not ready for.

Cheers,

JD

Hi John,

Good response on the "question".

Reasons why Tactical Knives did so well:

They came out (mostly in the folder form) right after the "inteframe" fiasco in the early 90's. Many early collectors viewed them as advanced grade knives that were both affordable and could be used. After all they were already ugly.

Many of the early buyers of these knives were "price shy" after taking such a beating with there interfames. Their think was... worse case scenario...Ill just keep it and use.

tactical folders allowed a lot of people to get into custom knives that would not have been able to.

You are also correct about the materials keeping the tactical market popular.

Also, the magazines. First there was Fighting Knives and then Tactical Knives.

I view the word "tactical" as more of a marketing brand as opposed to a type of knife. Tactical knives have a certain look.

To sum it up. Tactical knives became popular and still are popular due in large part to their affordability. The materials used, the fact they get constantly upgraded. The many different styles to pick from, and demand in the aftermarket for certain models.

Also with the factories starting to work with most of the popluar tactical knife makers some years ago.. They are bringing many new collectors into custom knives.

They of course will start with the makers they know from the factory knives they have.

Eventually these collectors will find their way to other knives. The cycle is turning again already.

I have a pretty fair collection of custom knives I think and several have mokume gane bolsters. One of my first from Ralph Turnbull was a fixed blade I bought from a now deceased maker and has a black and gold bolster. The others are a matching folder fixed blade set by Dale Reif (tkcl knives) with mokume bolsters by Robert Budzyn. Along side the myriad Damascus and titanium bolsters they certainly hold their own. I just get it when it is really nice and while I guess my heirs may sell them, I don't plan on doing so!

You'll never see me wearing big flashy earrings or a shiny necklace. I may, however, have a nice belt buckle on and an embellished handmade knife in my pocket.

What's my point? Well, guys like me don't much care for jewelry, but we do appreciate a little beauty in the things we use. Beauty, by definition, is subjective, and it's appreciation is unique to each and every one of us.

Mokume may not have any more functional use on a bolster as a chunk of titanium. In fact, the function may even be compromised a bit, as mokume might not be able to withstand wear and use quite as well as other materials. But that does not mean that mokume doesn't have its place in custom knives.

Just as a piece of ironwood on a Terzuola ATCF makes a subtle but profound impact on the aesthetics of the knife, the use of mokume can enhance the beauty of another.

Les Robertson argues that buyers should consider knives as investments. He also argues that there's no place for mokume on a tactical knife purchased as an investment. As one of the foremost authorities on the tactical knife market, investors need to take his opinions very seriously.

Interestingly, Les also recognizes that the monetary value of a knife as determined by the knife buying public will ebb and flow as trends change and the public's perception of value evolves. Perhaps one day the trend will move away from tactical knives with titanium bolsters and G-10 handles. If and when that day comes, his customers' $500 Vanguard folders might not seem like such a smart investment anymore. Nothing will change the fact that their knives are extremely well built, top quality pieces of handmade cutlery, but if the bid fades, they just won't be worth $500 anymore...

Let's hope for Les' sake that doesn't happen. We'd hate to see him forced to take losses on trade-ins. We'd hate to see the market dictate that he starts selling knives with embellishments and aesthetic considerations, like mokume bolsters. After all, the dealer likes to tell the market what to do, not the other way around ;)

So when we start thinking about knives as long term investments, let's take a moment to reflect on the rich history of edged weapons and other cutting tools. We would be well advised to consider for a moment the concept of knives as investments in a historical context.

One hundred and fifty years ago, for example, a discriminating American knife buyer would have had a choice: buy a well-made using knife from a local smith (the "tactical knife" of the time), or buy a nice, somewhat embellished knife from an artist/knifemaker named Michael Price.

I wonder... which knife would have been the better investment?

And I also wonder... Michael Price the knifemaker - Michael Price the artist - would he have used mokume on his knives if he had access to it?

Posterity will forget most knifemakers, but it will remember and honor the artists that elevated the craft to a higher level. It will remember artists like Michael Price, Buster Warenski, Tim Herman, Larry Fuegen, Don Fogg, Jonathen Loose...

When I consider which knife to buy as a long term investment, I won't consider for one moment buying a tactical knife. And when I consider which knife I want in my pocket, I will invariably choose the one with the indelible touch of an artist.

It may even have some mokume on it. :)