Hello everybody,

this is my first posting on CDK so I thought I should just say a little bit about myself.

Firstly, I am not a blade maker, like most of you seem to be, but rather a sword enthusiest looking to become a colector. My Knowledge of metallurgy is very limited (i.e. non existent) so be gentle with me.
I have been looking a lot, lately, at some of the folded steel series Katana from CAS iberia and to my amateur eyes they look like some of the best, mass-produced, non-Japanese, functional Katana on the market. The blade is specked at a differently hardened 60x40 which seems fairly standard. I am happy that they I am happy that they are specifically advertising folded blades (though I do not know how may times they are folded) because this does reflect traditional Japanese construction.
I do have one big question though. What in sweetness is ASSAB-K120C powder steel? I have read a couple of articles on-line with topics like “modern steels used for sword making” a no one has anything to say about this unusually long code number. Can any of you tell me anything about this, supposedly Swiss, brand of steel?

thanks very much

Michael

michael -
the only references i find with several search engines is to hanwei-made blades of ASSAB K-120C Swedish powdered steel. no specs found.
you may have better luck at the swordforum (http://swordforum.com/) but i am not familiar with them so can't tell for sure.
p.s. welcome to ckd

K120C powdered steel.

I know nothing ...

If you'll indulge me, I'll try and see if this helps.
K100 made by Assab-Bohler-Uddeholm is actually chemically identical to D-2. My list is quite old - doesn't have K120C. Ignore the "powdered steel" bit - it is simply a mathod of manufacture, and doesn't denote the chemical makeup of the steel. I'm gathering from working with RWL-34, which is the Swedish-made powedered steel version of ATS-34 that they hope to gain grain refinement and consistency throughout the steel. The technique works, so I feel that the powdered steel thing itself is a positive.

You could try to contact ASSAB yourself and ask for a spec sheet or speak to their technical person who can often reel off all the numbers by heart.

I know it doesn't answer your question, but perhaps some sideways insights...

Cheers.

Thank you very much Wayne, Jason. I was beginning to wonder if anybody knew anything about this mysterious stuff. I have posseted something at Swordforum as you sugested, it seems like a very good sight but not quite as teckno-minded as this one so we'll see about the results. I will contune serching for a websight or other contact for the Assab company. That is a defenat setpp in the right direction as previously I had believed A.S.S.A.B. was the first part of the coad # for the steel.
Thanks again guys, and if anyone else knows anything more I would aprechiate it.

Be Well All,

Michael

Jasson,

Based on your post I went back to Swordforum to see reveiw what they had to say about D-2. I realise that the K120-C is not nessesarly simmilar stuff but, untill I find out for sure I will be cautious with it. Here is a portion of that artical:

"If stainless properties and low maintenance are both required, then D2 may be an answer. However, the edge hardness has to be reduced to around Rc 55. The steel must be treated properly. In comparison with A2 tool steel, I would personally choose D2 over it. Due to its high alloy content, there is no proper way of differentially hardening steels like A2 or D2 in a way that provides for high quality results. (Editor's note: D2 contains chromium, but not enough to qualify it as a stainless steel - considered unsuitable for swords altogether. The chromium level, at higher contents, weakens the molecular bonds in steel, so it's good for short lengths only. The chromium content is countered by the presence of molybdenum.)"
http://www.swordforum.com/sfu/japanese/modern-steels.html

Bassed on this artical -- As the newer CAS high end moddles are all suposed to be 60x40 differently hardend blades and all seem to be made with K120-C -- I certanly hope that they are not made with D2.

Thanks again,

Michael

Michael, I apologise. I fear I may have mislead you. I didn't mean to say that K120C was D-2. I meant that K100 was D-2. But it was likely that K120C was some form of powdered carbon steel (possibly a straight carbon like 1095 / 1084 etc. I didn;t want to make a guess but got sidetracked on talking about K-100. I'm very sure that K120 is NOT D-2. Yes, I too, wouldn't want a sword in D-2.

If there is a temper line, its likely its a plain carbon steel - 1084 carbon steel powder has been available for some time in the USA and the makers of some mosaic damascus use it a bit. It can be pured in solid powder form into a variety of shapes of moulds, then forgewelded or (?) smelted into a solid form. Some makers of mosaic damascus first make cookie like shapes of the pictures they want in the pattern, then pour the powdered steel around the shapes so that they end up with a mosaic picture inside a surround of 1084 steel.

Again, I'm not saying that K120C is 1084 but its the only one I can think of.

Cheers.

Jason,

Don't worry about any confution, I did understand you post and I was very greatfull for it, as it was the closet thing I have yet found to a straight answer. I think perhaps I am the one who got carried away. The thinking is that K100 and K120 are very close numaricly and so may have simmilar properties to one another. I know that they would not be the same steel, It would strike me as a bit silly for one manufacturer to use two code numbers for the same thing. It is just trying to get information anyware that I can. You will notic I am also trying to take your advice about looking up the company; though I can't find a website for them and swiss yellowpages are hard to come by in canada.
anyway chating with you has peeked my curiosity. . . I may take a spin by your website and see what your selling. Not that I actualy have the money to buy, but its nice to know whats out their.
Be well, and happy, and may the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house,

yours ect.,

Michael (writing speeches for the Aquaman Party of Canada since 1874)

my website on www.jcbknives.com is not completed yet, so I don't know if it is accessible via links. But it will come up if you search the title above. There are a few pictures on the home page but until the developer gets my gallery going thats about it.

If you're interested, the 3 companies which may or may not have merged are ASSAB, BOHLER AND UDDEHOLM. Ie.- in some countries - they are known as Assab-Bohler-Uddeholm. IN Australia they are Bohler-Uddeholm. Very confusing if you are trying to figure out who to contact. In a web search you might get results with each of those names, but I managed to get onto one of their sites some months ago and they don't have technical info on it, only a description of the product list. Worth a try though.

I think that there is an AISI classification for a steel eg.- 1095/1084, D-2 and there are proprietary names, especially if the company actually manufactures that "grade" themselves. This has caused enormous problems for some people. The "front-desk" people often don't know the alternative nomeclature, just to make it more difficult. Or they make something similar but with their own formula. Eg.- Bohler 690 is identical to 440C but with some extra Cobalt in it it. Its either a lot of fun or a whole lot of trouble figring these things out. Depends on how you look at it.

Cheers. and Good luck.

K120C is simply a high carbon steel produced by BOHLER- UDDEHOLM by the powder method. It is exellent stuff and would make a great long sword steel. I 'LL SEE IF i CAN dig up some specs for it.

While on the subject of Bohler-Uddeholm steels, I managed to obtain a couple of pieces of one of their steels they call K340 ISODUR. This steel is not a powder steel, but shows good promise as a blade material. Maybe not suitable for forging though. The pieces I have are pretty thick( .5") and seem to be not fully annealed. All I know is, I wore out a few belts trying to grind something resembling a blade out of one piece. The analysis of K340 ISODUR is:

C- 1.10%
Si- .90%
MN- .40%
Cr- 8.30%
Mo- 2.10%
V- .50%

Sold as a high yield strength, excellent toughness tool steel, but also is Vacuum melted, so it should be very clean.

danbo how much does that K340 ISODUR run and have you found out if it was fully anneled yet? thanks
Justin

I got the stuff as sort of an experiment, and probably overpaid for it. It was also not easy to get them to sell me such a small order. I have two pieces that are 18"x2"x.5" and they cost me about $100 shipped. I really dont think they are fully annealed, as they are pretty hard to grind on, and I havent even tried to drill it yet. I'm guessing it is an air hardening steel, and may have work hardened when they cut these pieces for me. Or, maybe I just dont know how hard grinding on a piece of steel a half inch thick is?

It doesn't sound like any "standard" knifemaking steel I know of but with that much Moly it would be air hardening and the 0.5% Vanadium would make it an absolute b#$$@#$ to grind. With less than 14% Chrome, it would also be not stainless. I'm also guessing that the combo of components would make for a very tough blade - kinda like A-2 on steroids. The question is how to HT it well for knife purposes.

I just went to Assab (Bohler-Uddeholm here in Australia) and there was a steel product chart on their front desk. Never seen it before but it lists their proprietary names compared with the other names used. I'll try and get a copy.

Cheers. Jason.

i just made a knife of 1095 1/4' thick and it was a dog i got so mad i tryed a belt sander i tryed a grinder i even tryed a bandsaw at the wrong speed and smoked the blade i had best luck with a cuting torch(plasma but oxy/acet) works if you do it clean then using a dubble cut coarse bastard if that helps at all im sure you alredy know most of whats to know(im new to all this) if anything i said is unkosher please let me know so i can improve in my skills thanks

Dan, I had the same experience with CPM-1V. It was sliced off the end of a large thick slab and was so work hardened it just wasn't worth the effort. I later got some that was rolled to thickness and it was easy to cut and grind.

Mike,

I'd have to agree with Jason that it's A-2 on steroids. If you're looking into it for use on a japanese style sword I'd have to say it's an excellent choice. It's has great edge-holding properties and although it isn't stainless that's probably better because for a japanese style sword stainless sucks. Unlike A-2 though it can be clay-treated so I dont see any problems with it, specially because the chemical make-up would allow for easier differntial hardening, a big plus in a Katana.

That's all I know


~Ian

welcome to ckdf, ian.

Thx Wayne,

I'll keep that in mind

~Ian

Since K340 ISODUR is an air hardening steel, I'm not sure it could be clay tempered with any reasonable effect. 0.5% Vanadium isn't too bad. CPM-3V (3%) is reasonable to work. I might have to disagree on the "stainless sucks" position. I've seen S30V outperform some of the better tool steels, and from my experience in working with both it is better (tougher) than A2 in blades with tactical style edges. I've not compared them with finer edges, but that's not usually why A2 is used.

Ok,
To get one thing straight here I was posting for use in a FULLY FUNCTIONAL Katana. I would agree though that stainless is a good choice for short blades, knives, and "wallhangers" but if you were to use it in a real Katana the chromium would make the blade so molecularly weak, making it prone to DEEP scratches and an easily damagable edge. Next I read wrong about the A-2 on steroids thing (my bad), I didn't notice they were discussing K340 ISODUR. I meant that K120C could be clay-treated for a softer spine and harder edge. Other than that I fully agree with you

~Ian

Chromium doesn't make a steel necessarily weak if it is controlled as it pretty well is with good heat treating and powder metallurgy. S30V can make a Katana the average person simply couldn't break. I don't make "wallhangers"... :)

Other than that I fully agree with you as well.